Tania Leichliter (: 00:06

Welcome to the Better Than Bitter Divorce Podcast, where we flip the script on divorce and show you how to have a more amicable divorce resolution. I'm your host, Tanya Licklider, a divorce coach, a certified life coach, and the mastermind behind the Better Than Bitter five-step game plan course, where I help individuals build a pathway toward a more amicable divorce resolution.

Each week, I'll bring you uplifting stories from people who've successfully experienced amicable separations, proving that divorce doesn't have to be a battleground. Whether you're overwhelmed with grief, struggling with custody and co-parenting, or just dealing with a high-conflict individual, this podcast is here to guide you towards reclaiming your life and being what I know is possible, better than bitter.

Tania Leichliter (: 01:04

Episode 1, How to Navigate a Child-Centered Divorce. Today we're going to be speaking with Callie Donovan, who is an adult child of parents who did an incredible job of navigating a child-centered divorce. You will get to hear her story and how her parents, step by step, did everything in such a thoughtful way. So get ready to feel empowered and have the courage to get started on your journey towards a better, more amicable divorce resolution.

Tania Leichliter (: 01:39

Welcome, Callie. Thank you. I'm so excited to be here. So our goal for today is really to show our listeners an example of what is possible when two individuals who are getting divorced really do have a child-centered divorce. So how old were you when your parents decided to get divorced? Can you tell us a little bit more about that initial feeling when they told you the news?

So I was in sixth grade. I believe that makes me 11. I am the oldest of three kids. I remember my parents sitting us down and you know, as a kid, I think sometimes you just kind of know something is going on, but you don't really understand it in the way that, you know, maybe an adult would. So I kind of knew something was going on and they sat us down and I remember they were both really emotional and they said, you know, we're separating and

We love you guys and this has nothing to do with you. You didn't do anything wrong, but we're gonna start living apart. I do remember kind of feeling a little bit confused because it seemed like they were still like together almost. Like it seems like the way that they were telling it wasn't what I would have envisioned it to be like. I expected them to be more angry at each other. But you know, now that I'm older and I've talked to them, I know that they decided right away to.

divorce together and to have these conversations with us as kids together. And they had decided immediately when they decided to separate to do a child-centered divorce and spoke with counselors about what that would look like before they moved forward with anything legally. So when your parents told you that they were separating, was it like your mom or your dad left that day and went to live in another place? So my parents did nesting for the first year. My dad

would stay at a friend's my mom would stay at I think a friend's or my grandparents and kind of would switch it up a little bit. So we, the kids stayed in the house the whole time the first year and then they would take turns staying in the house. I think it was a week-by-week basis. And then custody changed once they were legally divorced and my mom kept the house and my dad got a new place.

Tania Leichliter (: 03:57

But that first year was they did nesting. So I'm so excited to talk to you about nesting because that's what I do with my ex. So many people are so interested in nesting and our situation is fairly similar. My kids are older. One left for college last year and then my son is now a senior. But for the first year of our divorce, my kids were both in the house at the same time.

And we did exactly what your parents did, but we didn't have friends we were staying with. We actually rented an apartment. I never wanted my kids to be travelers, like the people who had suitcases, who had to go between the two houses. I really felt strongly, and so did my ex, that we were going to do everything that we could to not make the kids the travelers. Because if you've ever worked in a business where you're on the road all the time, you know what it feels like to live out of a suitcase.

And we just didn't want the children to have to do that. So yeah, and I, my parents, they seek counseling right away. So they got advice from a counselor to if they were able to consider nesting for the first year. So I don't know if that's something they would have come up with on their own. So I think a podcast like this is great because you don't know what you don't know. And I think it's more common now than it was when they were getting divorced. But yeah, I remember

The transition was kind of strange because you're so used to having two parents in one house, especially when you're younger. Like if we had just gone into a whole other home for a week at a time or whatever, it would have been really, it just would have been a lot of change all at once. And I didn't realize at the time, but I look back on it now as an adult and I'm so grateful that they took steps like that to help make the change a little less abrupt for us. Cause you know, the thing I always say is like, you don't get to pick that your parents get divorced.

and you have friends whose parents are still together and you wish sometimes it would just be maybe a little bit simpler. But when they decided to do that, I think they were really thoughtful about what the divorce was gonna feel like for us. there's not a lot of choice for kids. If your parents are getting divorced and you have to go between houses, that's just what you have to do. So I remember it being a little bit confusing, but also I think now as an adult I realize that was really.

Tania Leichliter (: 06:16

important for us as we were processing and understanding what a divorced family was going to look like for us. I liked what you just said, what a divorced family was going to look like for us. What I hear over and over from the people that I coach is that, like, what are we supposed to be doing? Like, what is this supposed to look like? And I always tell them, like, every divorce is different. And the way that you re-envision your family,

is going to be unique to you. Can you talk a little bit more, if you have had conversations with your parents, about what it looks like for you as a family and how that evolved for each one of you and your siblings, right? Because you said you only nested for a year, is that correct? Yeah. And then what happened after that? My parents are, I think, kind of a unique situation because they work in the same building. They still, to this day, work in the same building.

They have a lot of mutual friends. We ended up doing holidays together, big holidays. So we do Thanksgiving as a family. We do Christmas. We do Easter. We do big things. We do graduations and parties together as a unit. So after that first year of nesting, my dad got a home nearby and he's actually moved a couple of times and they still live in the same town. And so

The way our custody worked out is I would be with my mom Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, then Thursdays were always with my dad, and then Friday, Saturday, Sunday would switch off. And at the time, it was because my dad wanted to move into a home that was in a different town. just I think with the way custody worked out, my mom was gonna stay where our school was, so that's why it up being what it was. But all through middle school and high school, I would follow that custody and switched back and forth.

As an adult, we got to choose. My parents were very comfortable with us deciding what we wanted to do. So now as an adult, if I come home, I stay at my mom's house and I see my dad, he'll come over to this house or we'll go see him for dinners. And we still do pretty much everything together. That reminds me just of how my setup is currently as well. We still do Thanksgiving together. We still do Christmas morning together.

Tania Leichliter (: 08:35

Thanksgiving, my family, my extended family come over and Scott's invited to that. I just love to hear other people who have really the same vision of like re-envisioning what this family is gonna be about. I don't think it's necessarily easy. I talk about this with other kids of divorce or other people who are divorced or whatever and I think a lot of times the reaction is like, that seems impossible. And I think it's because

what people envision divorce to be is really painful and really hard. And typically there's stuff that the people who are getting divorced can't work through and that's why you get divorced in the first place or whatever. And I do hear from my parents still, it wasn't easy in the beginning especially, but for them, if they were going to have a child-centered divorce and try to make this as easy on us kids as they could, this was the best option.

And it's evolved over time. I think they're more friendly. And it's easier to be friends now. But I definitely don't think it's a quick transition or easy for people who are getting divorced. But it was the best option for them at the time. And so you did talk about moving from nesting to then having to move from one house to another. Can you kind of reflect on that transition for you?

and what your parents might have done really well when you did have to transition to going back and forth. Yeah, so I, it's funny because I remember getting in fights with my mom or my dad and I had friends where if she was fighting with her mom or her dad, whatever, she could choose whose house to be at. My parents, if I was grounded at one house, I was grounded at the other one. If I was in a fight with one of them,

I remember calling my dad being like, Mom's being the worst and him being like, well, you're at our house tonight, so I'm sorry, but you're gonna have to work it out. They were always in communication. I never got away with something and the other parent didn't know about it. If I did something and I got in trouble at one house, immediately phone call to the other parent so they knew with the transition that that was gonna happen. I never got to use one parent against the other one. They were a team in all decisions still and they were very much co-parenting.

Tania Leichliter (: 10:53

I didn't love going back and forth between houses if I'm being honest. I don't like that and I know as an adult now I'm a nester. like to set up my room and I like to have my own space. It's for my personality, it's not the best. For my sister, she can be anywhere, whatever, it doesn't matter to her, it doesn't really bother her. That was also interesting. think all of us siblings looking back on the divorce, we don't necessarily find the same things difficult. Going between houses is not...

tough for me, but it wasn't tough for my sister. I think they made it as easy on us as they could. Like I got to set up my room at my mom's, I got to set up my room at my dad's, I had my spaces that I felt comfortable in. But yeah, it's not easy. It's not funnier. You know, when my dad lived in a different town, you know, I was so used to just walking to a friend's house. And then when he moved, that changed a little bit. And I think that's probably why he decided to move back to the town that we grew up in.

just to make it easier on us. I think it's so interesting how when you do have siblings, how each person acts or reacts or behaves differently in the same circumstance and how that resulted for you. You love to nest now. You love having your own space, you know, not moving around because, you know, for so many years you probably felt unsettled. Whereas it sounds like your sister, she embraced that. She embraced the gypsy lifestyle, being able to be flexible and going back and forth.

Thank you so much for sharing that. It will affect children in different ways. Not necessarily good or bad, right? Yeah, and it's one of those things, it's like just the circumstance. Like you said, every kid is gonna take it differently. And I do think like also being at different ages, like I don't even think when I talk to my sister, she's told me before, she doesn't remember what it's like for them to be together. And so I think in her mind, it's kind of like this thing of, well, they've always sort of been divorced to me, because I was so young when it happened.

Whereas, you I do know a time when we all lived in one house and we didn't go back and forth. And, you know, it wasn't, it's not something that I am upset about or whatever, but I can recognize as an adult, like, hey, I didn't love that. And we made the best of it that we could. But yeah, like you said, everyone's going to experience it differently. So I'm assuming over time, you also had friends, right? Whose parents started getting divorced. And you probably were looking around to be like, my gosh, like that's not.

Tania Leichliter (: 13:18

what my parents' divorce looked like. Can you share any kind of stories about the child-centered divorce versus an experience that you might have seen with a friend that might not have been coming from a child-centered divorce? Absolutely. I did grow up actually with a really close friend whose parents were divorced and it was not amicable. And I remember her, like if we were walking home from school, if she saw my dad's car in my mom's driveway, she'd be like,

my God, why is your dad's car there? To her, was like something really bad was going on. It was very normal for me to come home to one house and one parent was already at that other parent's house. Her parents' divorce was really complicated. It was very difficult. One of the parents would speak badly about the other parent. And if she came home and complained about one parent, then the parent would be like, my gosh, yeah, they're the worst, they're terrible. And they had this nickname for the other parent. And it was just, it was so...

different from what I had experienced. And she would, you know, she could call one parent and say, if this one's, we're fighting and the other parent would be like, please come over. I'll take care, you know, there was no communication with the other parents. It made parties really difficult. made graduations difficult, you know, and I do think there was a lot of behind-the-scenes of the parents kind of trying to get at the other parent through the kid, which I know is actually very common, which is so.

unfortunate and makes it so difficult, I think, for kids, as they get older when they look to have their own relationships or, you know, my mom always says, you can tell a lot about a person from the breakup, from how you break up with them, and you don't know what they're going to be like until you do break up with them. And I've learned a lot from my parents' relationship and also their divorce about how my own relationships are going to look in my life and how my own breakups are going to look like and, you know, how I want to choose to communicate with people and

I feel bad for the friends that I had whose parents had a very unamicable divorce because I know I see that impact. And it's tough. It's the kids, again, they don't get to choose if their parents are going to be divorced. And you hope that your parents are going to be a good example for you. And that's just something that you have to grow up with. So you definitely just tapped on something that I wanted to discuss. And that's how you view relationships moving forward, whether

Tania Leichliter (: 15:42

It's just dating somebody or what your vision is for getting married if you want to get married. So can you talk a little bit about that? Because you tapped on it because you said you definitely have a vision in your mind around relationships and how you view them. For me, the most important thing I've learned is that I'm not necessarily afraid of divorce. Would it be great if I met someone in the next couple of years and I got married and we were together forever? Obviously, that'd be awesome.

But I don't necessarily think of it as being something that's so terrible. And I have friends now who are getting married who I know when they talk about divorce, it's sort of a thing of like a failure, like a personal failure. Like you have done something in your relationship and you've done it wrong and you've failed. And I don't really see it that way. I don't.

necessarily think that people have to be with one person forever and that if you do choose to get divorced that you've done something bad. I also think it's possible to get divorced and you don't ruin your kids. Like I think a lot of parents probably feel like they should stay together because it's best for the kids. But I know a lot of kids who are now adults who are like, wish my parents got divorced or I wish they weren't together anymore. It would be so much easier. They fight all the time and...

It's always interesting to me when I hear people say that they wish their parents would get divorced. But yeah, I don't see it as something that's so negative. And I think, you know, we all have baggage from, you know, seeing other people's relationships or we all think in our minds like, well, I'm definitely not going to do this. I just think we're all doing our best and we all want to connect with the person. And if things don't go the way you hoped, there's hope for another person. My mom is remarried and my stepdad and my dad are very friendly.

They sit together on holidays and giggle and like laugh and my parents have given each other dating advice. Well, I know they're such a strange like they're an extreme example of an amicable divorce, but I know from them that divorce is not the worst thing that can happen to you and that there is hope for other relationships. Both of my parents are in very strong, happy relationships now. And I don't, it's not something I fear or think is the worst thing that could happen.

Tania Leichliter (: 17:54

I think that's why I felt like we were soul sisters. I mean, I think you're young enough to almost be my daughter, not quite, but close. And I just feel that I went through exactly what you went through. I have parents that got divorced and were so amicable. My mom would go out and spend time with my stepmom and help her design her house because my mom was an architect.

My dad's actually been married a couple of times, but I have stayed super close to his second wife. And she has really taken on a grandmother role in my children's life. And so when I went out to visit Colorado with my kids, we would always have a dinner and it was my stepmom and her new husband and my dad and his new wife.

And we would have these amazing dinners. And every single time I come there, like my stepmom is hoping that all of us can get together. And they've created a beautiful life. So not only did my mother have a relationship with my stepmom, but my stepmom now has a relationship with my father's new wife. And we are one big happy family. Actually, unfortunately, my mother's sister is on hospice, and my dad and his

wife are flying out here on Friday so they can come to the hospital to be by her bedside. So I'm with you. I mean, this can be possible. And it's a beautiful thing when you can throw away the why of why you're getting divorced and just focus on the future and your children and making sure that everybody feels love and there's love all around, right? It just doesn't...

feel good to have a hate in your life, especially when you're getting divorced and there's struggles in your marriage, you know, to be able to look forward and feel how much better it would feel if everyone just got along. Cause who wants to hold onto that angst, right? Yeah. And I love that I get to experience my favorite holidays with everybody I love. get to look around the room and everyone that I would want to be in the room is there.

Tania Leichliter (: 20:11

And I love that, you my graduations, I didn't stress about them being in the same room or sitting next to each other. And, you know, I'll get married and, you know, my parents will be at that wedding and they'll sit together and I won't stress about, they having a good time? Is this weird? Whatever. And I think, you know, everybody's divorce is going to look different. if showing up at the other person's house and having drinks doesn't sound good if you're getting divorced, like don't do that. I'm not saying that you should be best friends or whatever.

But I do think that as a child of an amicable divorce, I know my parents put us kids first, and not only did it help us as kids, but I know for them to let go of any of that negativity has been so helpful for them. And it's not that they didn't fight afterwards. Like, did they always agree with parenting decisions? No, but they came to compromises and they came to a decision just as parents who are still together would.

and made decisions knowing that both people were putting us kids first. And I liked what you just said. You said, just like a married couple would, who's parenting their children. So yeah, mean, you're not always going to be on the same page when you're parenting children when you are married. So having the expectation that when you get divorced, that you're always going to be on the same page, well, that's not going to happen. It's how you communicate through those tough times.

Yeah, that's definitely, think even to this day, my parents do not bad mouth each other. I know they've been annoyed with each other. I know that they haven't always agreed on things. They always made it very clear to us that they were not going to bad mouth the other one. And I remember like as a kid being like, my God, I know you guys are irritated with each other. Just say that, like just be, know, but they were very good about always speaking kindly of the other person. And that has been something I've

carry with me even to this day. Like I appreciate that more than I can even say. Can you just in closing talk about why you're passionate about amicable divorces? Can you give a message out to so many parents from the perspective of a child as to what you believe is the secret sauce to being able to make this happen and why you're passionate about it? I think for me, when I talk to my parents now about that, those first few weeks or months or the first year of

Tania Leichliter (: 22:33

Realizing that they weren't going to be together anymore what that what those conversations look like I am so grateful that like through all of that because that can't be easy, know and I think you know parents don't always explain just how difficult it is to kids But I know that couldn't have been easy the fact that they threw all of that were like This is gonna be really hard on the kids How do we kind of how do we try to make it easier on them the fact that they thought to do that? I'm so

grateful for because I know how painful it is for, just divorce, in general, is painful, but if I had to deal with parents who were mean to each other, who tried to use us kids against the other one, if they hadn't tried to make holidays, you know, still a happy time, birthdays and big events and whatever, I think that would have been really painful for me. And I'm sure when you're getting divorced, it's hard to choose to put the kids first and to try to put, you know,

your differences aside, but I know that it makes the experience different for kids because I've seen what unamicable divorces look like with my friends. I can't even explain how grateful I am for the family that I have that we still can band together. And amicable divorce doesn't look the same now for us than it did. Like there is definitely, you know, my parents are in different relationships and they don't see each other as much and they don't give dating advice anymore or whatever. They're very much living their own lives, especially now that all of us kids are

are out of the house and my dad's gonna be moving a little bit farther away to be with his girlfriend. So it'll look very different, I think, for us in the coming future, but it's just the natural progression I'm so grateful that I grew up in the family that I did because I know it wasn't easy, but it made all the difference for us and I know for the two of my parents as

I wanted to have a recap of three incredible takeaways that I got from today's interview. The first one is nesting. Consider nesting as a transition option as you begin to develop your parenting plan. The second one is the importance of being on the same page with your ex, making sure that your kids have clear boundaries no matter where they reside. And the third one,

Tania Leichliter (: 24:50

is coming from a place of love and not hate. And I just want to point out again how incredible Callie's story is. And if you were as inspired as I was, just know that this type of result is possible.

Tania Leichliter (: 25:09

Thanks for tuning in to Better Than Bitter, navigating an amicable divorce. Whether you are at the beginning of your divorce journey, midway through, or even done, we want the stories from our guests to give you hope that an amicable resolution is possible. If you'd like to dive deeper into today's episode, check out our show notes for a full transcript, reflections, and links to learn more about Better Than Bitter's coaching courses,

and how to connect with our fabulous guests. If you're ready for more support, you can head over to betterthanbitter.coach. You'll find details and additional information on our five-step game plan multimedia course, our one-to-one Zoom coaching, group coaching, monthly memberships, events, and retreats. Remember, we're here to help you reach an amicable resolution, find your courage, and believe in your brighter future.

Because you know what? It is possible. And at Better Than Bitter, we measure success by what we give and not by what we get. Let's change the divorce dialogue together. It's time to be better than bitter.