Introduction (: 00:06

Welcome to the Better Than Bitter Divorce Podcast, where we flip the script on divorce and show you how to have a more amicable divorce resolution. I'm your host, Tania Leichliter a divorce coach, a certified life coach, and the mastermind behind the Better Than Bitter five-step game plan course, where I help individuals build a pathway towards a more amicable divorce resolution.

Each week, I'll bring you uplifting stories from people who've successfully experienced amicable separations, proving that divorce doesn't have to be a battleground. Whether you're overwhelmed with grief, struggling with custody and co-parenting, or just dealing with a high conflict individual, this podcast is here to guide you towards reclaiming your life and being what I know is possible, better than bitter.

Tania Leichliter (: 01:04

Welcome to the Better Than Bitter Podcast, episode number nine. Today we have Matthew Blades, and I just wanted to state that Matthew is not somebody who is divorced. So on this podcast, I am going to be interviewing other individuals who have fascinating stories. And the title of this is just hitting rock bottom and being able to come out of that. And Matthew had some really incredible decisions, not only just about himself, but about his relationship.

And again, he decided not to divorce, but I believe that his journey is something that we should all hear. So he has been entertaining audiences in the broadcasting community for over 27 years. He was an award-winning radio host, and he really deeply cares about people and their success. And he just really wants to help as many people as possible. But he had this restlessness, he defines, as this deep...

thing that was gnawing in him, this core to do more. But working harder just didn't help him feel any better. So he went deeper and he went to those really hard places and he went deep to those emotional pain points. And that's really what I wanted him to share today. And it was through his emotional training, his ideation and his personal experiences that he actually started a new show. It's called Learn From People Who Lived It. And this is really a global digital

opportunity for you all to engage with him at a different level. So I will have Matthew tell you more about his show, but welcome Matthew.

Mathew Blades (: 02:35

Thank you so much for that intro. got chills up and down my spine as you were reading that thinking, know, because I don't think about it on the daily about how far I've come over the last three years. But man, when you read that out loud and I listen to that, go, wow, okay. There has been a journey here and we're still in it.

Tania Leichliter (: 02:58

Yeah, and I think that people who are contemplating divorce or maybe faced with divorce or made the decision to divorce, you know, it's a very complex decision because what was fascinating about my discussion with you is that you really did decide that there was the "you" and then there was the "us". And you made a very conscious decision before jumping ship to make sure you def-

worked on the you. So can you tell me like about that pivotal point in your life where you just decided to stay in it and just press pause and ask for the space to go do that?

Mathew Blades (: 03:41

Yeah, sure. Well, I think like so many people who are constant, who get to like the crossroads of life, right? Because anybody who makes a change in their life, we all come to that crossroads. Eventually all of us get to a point where they go, this isn't working for me any longer and I need to try something different, right? And if you don't, then you're just insane and keep on partying, buddy, because it's never gonna work out. But eventually all of us get to that point where we go, all right, what are we doing here?

And I think like so many people, it's a slow burn. It doesn't happen overnight. It's not like you wake up on a Wednesday morning and you're like, you know what? I'm thinking about leaving my job, my career, my life, my wife, everything. I think most people, it starts to stack up. And that's exactly what it did for me. It started to stack up. And I noticed that first and foremost in my personal lives, like relationships didn't feel like I wanted them to feel. And then in my career, the job stopped.

being something that I got excited about. And it started to become a place where I didn't want to show up every day. And then I started to manifest physically. And this is where, at least in my journey, when I talk to people, so many folks identify with this part of my story, which is my body started to scream at me. My body started to freak out because I wasn't taking care of myself. And I got these shingles, which

I had never had before, but that is not a journey anybody wants. And then after that, I had three of what they call nocturnal panic attacks in a row. And I mention this because I know that there's a lot of people who wake up every day and they don't feel great in their skin or they don't feel good about their life or they don't feel good in their relationship.

And that stress starts to weigh on all of us. so I think it's important to mention this physical manifestation because if you're like me, you've gone to the doctor and you've said to the doctor like, dude, what is going on? My back hurts, my neck hurts, my knees hurt. I don't have any energy anymore. You know, this, that, and the other thing. And literally, it's the stress. It's the stress of your situation that's weighing you down. So I go in for that third.

th,: 2021

If it's not physical, then it's mental and it's probably spiritual. And it's literally time for me to go and work on this. So I did. I checked myself into a mental and spiritual health retreat just four days later and spent five days with what I call a team of angels. And I don't want to say get put back together because I wasn't broken, but I got realigned.

I figured out who I was again. And most importantly, I stepped into something that I hope we spend a little bit of time talking about today, which is I stepped into this transitional character energy. And that was the pivotal moment, excuse me, for me, where I made a seismic shift in how I operated my.

Tania Leichliter (: 06:58

So one, where did you go for this retreat? Because our listeners are definitely going to be interested. And the second part of that is as a male, what did it take for you to admit to yourself that you needed to take care of your mental health? I know that some men...

I'm meeting some women too, but really look at this as weakness, not open to therapy or not open to somebody coming close to a level of vulnerability that they're going to need to experience. So can you tell me a little bit about what it took for you and any barriers that you had to break down? So where did you go and like, how did you get to that point of allowing

yourself to get there if you had any advice for those who are like, couldn't do that.

Mathew Blades (: 07:53

Io the first answer to your question is I went to a place called Spirit Quest in Sedona, Arizona. And for anybody who's ever been to Sedona, you will know that it's just an incredible healing energy in that city. It's one of the handful of vortexes in the world where the energy is a little bit stronger. And for those of us who can feel that kind of thing, you actually, you vibrate at a different level when you're in Sedona. So that's first and foremost.

And then to answer your second question. So I had been in therapy since I was 23 years old off and on because I'd been dealing, I think I'm a little different than a lot of people, Tony. We all take hits on the way up. And one of the major hits that I took was at 23 years old, my father had a heart attack and he died in my arms. And so you can imagine the trauma of trying to save your own father and not being able to.

ttle bit of help. And then in: 2006

looking at my house in Coon Rapids, Minnesota, looking around me and going, what the hell are we doing? Like, what is this chaos that I'm growing up in? What is happening between my mom and dad? Why does everything feel so messed up all the time here? And in that moment at 12 years old, I knew that I would be doing things differently. And when I took a look at myself in the mirror after all the shingles and the panic attacks, I was like, you're not living your life at all like you promised yourself you would. So.

It actually became very easy for me to make the decision. The hard part was the conversations that I would have to have with people after I made the decision to leave. But it actually was easy to step into that energy of I got to go get to work on this right now. I have to because I'm not the father I want to be. I'm not the brother I want to be. I'm not the co-worker I want to be. I'm not the husband I want to be. I wasn't checking any boxes. And so it was like

Go do this right now so that you can figure out your life and you can get back on track with who you are, what you wanna be about, and how you wanna show up for people every single day.

Tania Leichliter (: 10:23

So you did say something that I thought is pretty impactful for a divorce podcast. And that is that you had two parents who stayed married or who were married, but yet you weren't a child looking at this marriage to say like, yeah, that's what I want. So can you talk a little bit about, you know, their decision to stay together and whatever that was for, maybe it was for the kids.

Mathew Blades (: 10:40

Right.

Tania Leichliter (: 10:50

And obviously every study out there says that like if you are in a tumultuous marriage, don't believe that staying together for the kids is good for the kids. So tell me a little bit more about your experience in that household and how you were able to step outside of that to say like, Hey, that's not what I.

Mathew Blades (: 11:09

Sure. Yeah, this is a great question because so many people I think need to do this where you like, hey, let's walk this back a little bit. Like how did we get here? And so when I tell the story of my mom and dad, Dan and Naomi, who were married for, I guess they got married in 73 and they were married up until my dad died in 1996. So, you my dad had just come back from the Vietnam War. My mom had just come back from a failed attempt at moving to Florida to better her career as a hairstylist.

They found themselves being introduced by a cousin. Then they had me like right away, right? It was a shotgun wedding. And my dad was an alcoholic. My dad had a lot of, I think, trauma from the Vietnam War that he was really trying to figure out and sift through. And, you know, like so many young families, because my mom was like 23. My dad might have been 24, right? And they have their first baby and you're getting thrust into life.

they missed they never had what looked like a great relationship. did not grow up with that example of marriage. They weren't super cordial to each other all the time and we took him wrong right there with plenty of moments where they were just fine and everything was honky dory but more than I remember growing up with yelling or screaming or being in financial stress or my dad's drinking get in the way of their relationship and her like you know.

we're gonna get a divorce and you have to go to rehab and some of these things. I think it's important to walk that back a little bit and go, okay, what was happening before you came into the picture? And then how did they operate it moving forward? And so I actually think it's a lot of value in talking about, I'm one of those people who saw what I didn't want growing up. Does that make sense? Yeah.

Tania Leichliter (: 12:51

Yeah, yeah, there's so many of those stories out there. have podcast guests who came from divorced parents, but yet all the ways that they divorced properly, like, you know, everything that they did that was bad in the divorce process, which really affected her. So whether you're in a household with two people who stay married and it's not a positive role model for the children or they decide to get divorced and do it

Mathew Blades (: 12:54

for sure.

Tania Leichliter (: 13:20

completely not amicably and put the children in the middle of it. And there's so many horror stories about how parents can create long lasting trauma for the kids. So I feel that the best thing for us to do is what you did. It's like, can step outside of your situation and be able to reflect in and say, hey, that's their life. That's the way that they did it, but I want to do it different.

Mathew Blades (: 13:21

Mm.

Tania Leichliter (: 13:47

So let's talk about your spirit quest experience and what happened there and how you were able to turn that page even in your relationship as you left it. Cause like, what were the learnings? What were the teachings? How did you come out from this bottom of the barrel?

Mathew Blades (: 13:49

Yeah.

You

Yeah, that's such a good question. I think for so many of us, the answer goes back to events on the way up is kind of how I phrase it, right? So whether that's your childhood, your teenage years or whatever, and not everybody has mommy, daddy issues. You know, some people have are bullied in school or some people have traumatic experiences at work or some people are stabbed in the back by a best friend and now they have trust issues the rest of their life. Like it shows up for people a million different ways. But if there's one, if there's one

Principle that I learned from the four or five days that I was up there. It was that Because of the way that we are brought up We see the world in a certain way and we all have a programming system Basically that we show up with every single day how we operate how we react how we do everything in life and all of that is based on the way you came up so Probably the biggest teaching that I had to figure out Tony was that I had faulty wiring

Maybe not faulty, that's not a great word, but I had outdated programming. And you hear this expression a lot with people, which is like, they're acting like a child, or he's acting like a child, she, and they're talking about adults, right? And we are, we are, we are literally locked in that childlike mindset that traces back to those traumatic events. And because of that, that's how we show up and that's how we operate. And so in that retreat, I learned a few things. I learned number one,

to just become aware of what had happened and just treat it like an event. So many of us have these things happen to us and we put all the weight in the world on that. We make that our entire identity and we make so much meaning out of these stories. And don't get me wrong, these are big events. They're big important events that take place in your life. But I think most of us, if we got really honest with ourselves,

We're probably hanging on to things that we would be better off letting go and setting down. And so I had to do that. I had to set down that programming and I had to go back and sort of reparent that kid who had had a few things happen to him along the way. And then really, as I said, step into that idea of you're the transitional character now and it's your job to move your family through dysfunction and break the cycle.

you're the one that's gonna stop all of this. And with that superpower, it became like, I always tell people, I think you can actually enjoy the process of healing. I'm an example of it. It doesn't have to be torture and tears every single day. Like you can look at your growth and almost like what happened to us upfront, like you can get chills up and down your spine going, whoa, we've come a long way. We've done a lot of work.

And so the challenge for me to people is take a look at your programming. Take a look at the way you're showing up for people every day. Are you the latest version of Chrome or are you still on fricking Mac one from back in the day where everything's green and on a little screen? And I think most people, if you really took a hard look at yourself, you would say, I probably need an update. I probably need to go to settings, hit general.

hit, you know, is there an update here? And I need to do it. And that's what the retreat gave me. The retreat gave me the updated programming system so that I could show up like this mature adult that I am now, who's just in a different place and ready for new things and execute those on the daily.

Tania Leichliter (: 17:27

Yeah, in our divorce coaching that I do at Better Than Bitter, we talk about the fact that it's not our life circumstances that create our feelings. It's the stories and the beliefs and the thoughts that we have about them. And that when you go to evaluate your stories, your beliefs or your thoughts, you need to ask yourself, like, how is that serving me today? Because if it's not serving me in a way that's going to bring up an emotion that's going to allow for me to act...

Mathew Blades (: 17:37

Yes, yes, yes.

Tania Leichliter (: 17:54

react or behave in a way that's gonna get me the results in our life. The thing that you have control over is the thought, is the belief, the story. Because once again, that's your own. That's what you can control. And you have just the same ability to rescript, rethink, right? And when you rescript and rethink, you then refill. And when you have a new emotion, right? You act, react and behave in ways that are gonna get you the outcome you want in your life. And it sounds like...

Mathew Blades (: 18:13

Yes.

Tania Leichliter (: 18:21

You know, it sounds like your retreat is very much the same way that I coach, you know, anybody going through this divorce process. But again, it's a daily practice. It's a, it's a, the ability to do this on yourself on a daily basis. And if you're going through a divorce, you're having so many ruminating thoughts, put all those thoughts, those stories, those beliefs on paper, because once you get them out, once you put them down on paper, you can evaluate them.

Mathew Blades (: 18:31

Yes.

Tania Leichliter (: 18:48

and say, okay, first of all, is that a fact or a thought? Because when they talk to me, they're always talking about thoughts as facts. So give us an example of the work you did. So we get the theory, right? We get the theory of what was done. Can you give an example of a-

Mathew Blades (: 18:51

Mm-hmm.

It's so true, so true.

Tania Leichliter (: 19:12

practice that would get you outside of journaling, since I just talked about that, that would get you outside of that to be able to put that event aside.

Mathew Blades (: 19:24

Do you mind if we go to the deep end of the pool? Okay, so to me, this was the most powerful practice that I have in my life outside of my meditation practice. And so when I'm coaching folks, the one thing that I say is you probably won't control your life until you control your mind. So you really do need to get a hold of your head. And for most people, prayer and meditation is a really great way to execute that because they both do the same thing.

Tania Leichliter (: 19:26

Now let's do it.

Mathew Blades (: 19:51

They both really, really help you and prepare you for life and just make you better in your own skin. so aside from a meditation practice or a prayer practice, which I think are invaluable to people, the one exercise that we did, Tanya, that was probably the most powerful was an inner child exercise. so let me give you an example. I had a lot of trauma around my relationship with my mom. And you know, it's...

really safe to say that my relationship with my mom has impacted every single relationship that I've ever had in my entire life, including the one that I have with my wife of 20 years, right? And so I was in a session and the therapist was like, close your eyes. And so I closed my eyes and she said, okay, I want you to go back to your nine-year-old self because we had just gotten done kind of hashing out this event that had taken place when I was nine years old.

She said, I want you to go back to just think of, see yourself as a nine year old and see yourself sitting in a room. And so I'm visualizing all of this and she's like, okay, so you're sitting in the room by yourself in just a moment, you right here, your adult self is gonna walk into that room and you're gonna go over and you're gonna sit next to that little boy and you're gonna let him off the hook. You're gonna tell him that he did everything that he could have done. It's not his fault.

the way that he's operating his life anymore doesn't need to be the way that things are moving forward. And you're just gonna give him a pass. You're gonna thank him for everything that he's done for you to keep you alive and keep you well and all of the things that are so true for most people who have a situation like mine. But you're ultimately gonna let him off the hook and you're gonna say, the adults running the show now. So, I'm sitting there.

The tears are coming down my face as I'm imagining this little boy. And this is a really tough moment for me, because I'm going back to some trauma that I quite honestly hadn't even thought of in 30 years. And in that moment, in Buddhism they call it Mahumadhara, where you step outside yourself and you look at yourself. And so I encourage people to do that for themselves. Just sit there and imagine you're watching yourself. What would you see?

're still carrying it here in: 2024

And tell me why, tell me what does that serve? And you know as well as I do, it serves the story. Because as long as you get to, I don't wanna say blame, but as long as you have a reason for your behavior, you might keep doing it. So that was potentially the most powerful exercise I did. And there were a handful of other releases that happened at this retreat. But I believe that that example right there of...

all of us going back in time and going, what was that pivotal moment for me where everything started to look different? Because I'm with you on this. And I've always said, one of the reasons that I think I identify with you and your podcast is that I've always said, some relationships, just end. There's no terrible reason for it. It's just two consenting adults that have come to a place where they decide this isn't working any longer. And sometimes it's that simple. Sometimes you've just grown apart.

And I think that can happen in relationships with your friends. I think it can happen in relationships with your career. It can definitely happen, obviously, in marriage. And it's a really cool thing to sort of look at that and go, are we still doing this the way we want to be doing it?

Tania Leichliter (: 23:40

And what's so interesting, I got, and by the way, I have just like been holding back my tears. Cause it's just such a great, like amazing story. And the that you're able to share it today is really great. So thanks. I'm gonna cry. But so I was just thinking about the fact that, you know, when we don't necessarily,

Mathew Blades (: 23:45

Aww.

Hmm.

Mm-mm. you're fine.

Tania Leichliter (: 24:05

be able to find that trauma in our life. Because shit happens, right? So it's like, have lots of pivotal moments. Your traumatic moment was so obvious, right? You had your father dying in your arms. I think the general population could probably say they have a million pivotal moments and that not any single one of them is maybe the most impactful. But sometimes it's just the drops in the bucket that kind of

Mathew Blades (: 24:08

Of course.

Right.

Tania Leichliter (: 24:31

create this bigger thing, right? So it's like, when I look at my own life, I look at the fact that, you know, my parents lost a child before me. So I was the child that came out of that. And then, you know, my parents ended up getting divorced. My dad moved across countries. My mom's parents both died pretty soon after that. Then my mom got cancer when I was 15. And like,

You know, so just once again, lots of like things, they're all, you know, traumatic in their own way. Mostly, and so I was just a kid experiencing my parents' lives as an innocent bystander. So nothing happened specifically to me.

Mathew Blades (: 25:14

Right, right, right.

Tania Leichliter (: 25:19

But like as a bystander of lots of things that happened in their lives, I was impacted by that. And I have no idea the trauma it created as individual events, right? But I think it's the collective of all the events, right? That, you know, potentially created trauma in my life. So in your spirit quest,

experience where there are other people that you might have connected with that said like, yeah, like, I don't have the one life event that created trauma, but my I know that I've been affected in my life by lots of pivotal moments. And, you know, are those still people that can experience what you experienced?

Mathew Blades (: 25:57

Yeah, so I wanna say something really quick before I answer that question, which is I hope you have had an opportunity to go back and thank your mom and dad for the experience that you had, because how incredible are you as a coach? How incredible are you as a podcast host in this space because of what you went through? And that's the one thing that so many people, including myself, got stuck on for really long time.

I was very, very good at blaming my mom and dad for the bullshit that I had to occur on the way up. I was really, really good at that. And eventually ,I had to get to a point where I was like, you know what, hold on a second. I had the perfect parents. They didn't get it perfect. They didn't get it right all the time. They've messed a lot of things up, but I wouldn't be the speaker I am today. I wouldn't be the podcast host I am today. I wouldn't be the man I am, the husband I am, the father I am without those experiences. And Tony Robbins is famous for saying, if you're gonna blame for all the bad stuff,

You gotta blame them for all the good stuff they gave you too. And so I just want to articulate that first because bravo to you, right? Take an experience and use it. We say this a thousand times on Learn From People Who Lived It. Stop asking why it happened. It only happens so that when somebody else has their turn, you can help them out. Like that's it. We're just here to help each other out. So I wanted to say that really quick. So that's kind of part one of that thing.

And then I can answer your second question with a quick story. So we were in a small group session. It was the only small group session that we had in the entire week that I was there. And there was a guy who stood up and we were all going around doing our trauma and he was kind of the last person to talk. And he was embarrassed. And the moderator was like, you know, well, what? And he's just like, I'm listening to all these people and you all have these terrible things. And I just feel like mine's stupid.

And eventually, we got this guy to talk and we found out that when he was 11 years old, he was playing cards with his dad and his dad's brother. So he's at the card table with his dad and his uncles and he has a killer hand and he wins and he wins this and he wins like a big pot of chips and he gets up and he's dancing and he's celebrating and he's having a good time and his dad grabs him by the arm, marches him in the other room and gives him a big speech about be humble, stop acting like that.

Tania Leichliter (: 28:09

Hmm.

Mathew Blades (: 28:10

When you win, that's not how we act. On that moment, that boy lost the desire to be a winner for the rest of his life because he felt like if I win, I can't be excited about it. I can't let it feel good. Holy smokes. Imagine all of the ways that would show up in somebody's life. I can't be good or I'll get in trouble.

Tania Leichliter (: 28:24

Okay.

Mathew Blades (: 28:33

He never wanted to achieve. Now, thank God he did the work too and he broke through that and he was able to find his way. And he's a very successful CEO now, but it doesn't like to your point, it doesn't have to be this monstrous thing. And it can be a lot of little things added up, but I believe that most of us have to get to a stage where if it's gonna be the little things that added up, it's time for us to look at ourselves and go, okay, hold on a second. Am I in the best environment?

Is this like if all these little things keep happening to me, don't get me wrong, when you're a kid, you can't control that. But I'm talking about like grown adults, right? If you're in a situation where the world still is not making sense and terrible things are happening to you all the time, it's quite possible your environment is not OK. And you need to look at making a shift. And I think I don't think I know for me when I was able to connect some relational programming dots to my career and to my mom.

it became very, very clear to me that that was a toxic environment for me and that was not going to be okay. And as I love to say now, you cannot heal in a war zone. You can't heal in a war zone, man. Like you, you have to put yourself in a place of peace and serenity to get some healing done on yourself. And so for me, I knew I had to walk away from that career for other people who listened to your podcast. might finally be time to leave that relationship or

be done with that relationship because you've come to that stage where I talked about upfront, you're at the crossroads. This isn't getting any better. And it's time to look at yourself and go, okay, am I the problem? And if you're not the problem, then it might be your environment and it might be time to go. And the message is that's okay. Like go for it. And you and I were talking before we got started about like midlife crisis and stuff. And

There's a guy named Michael Singer who's written a couple of incredible books that I encourage everybody to read. The Untethered Soul is amazing and then he's got another one that is slipping my mind right now. but it's just fantastic. But Michael asserts that every one of us should have a midlife crisis at some point in our lives. Like get into your 40s, get into your early 50s, whatever that is for most people and take a look around and go, okay, am I still doing this the way that I want to be?

Should I be making a shift? Am I played out in my career? Is it time for a new relationship? Like I think it's perfectly okay to answer those, to ask those questions of yourself. And then this is the critical point. And this is probably what you see as a divorce coach is that most people then when they make that decision to make a big change in their life, they don't do so in a very kind way. And my healers were

They must have said it 10,000 times. When you make this shift, you must shift in the highest way possible. That was their charge to me. I couldn't do this with a low frequency. I couldn't do this with a low vibe. I couldn't do this thrashing out and making sure everybody else around me felt my pain. I had to move in the highest way, which meant extreme ownership of my stuff. And...

Tania Leichliter (: 31:43

Yeah. I call it a victor, right? Stop playing victim. Stop blaming, stop making excuses, stop denying. Be a victor in your own life. Take accountability, take ownership, take responsibility for yourself. That's...

Mathew Blades (: 31:48

That's it.

Yeah, I think it's great. That's a fun energy. To me, that's that, I keep saying that's transitional character. That transitional character is here to end dysfunction for themselves and make life better for the people around them. So do that. If you feel that tug to make your life better so that you can have the life that you imagined for yourself, let's go, let's get after it. Most people are pissed off because they've been sitting on the sidelines just thinking about it. And I'm here to say like, step into it today.

Like right now, step into the energy.

Tania Leichliter (: 32:26

And I think that so much of infidelity or decisions that people are doing, you know, when they're in their marriage is because they're just trying to feel better, right? They're just trying to do something to make themselves feel better. They're trying to validate themselves because they are not taking the time to lean into themselves to make themselves better first. I remember when my ex and I were in therapy and the therapist said,

Mathew Blades (: 32:34

Right, of course.

Tania Leichliter (: 32:52

You know, I said, I just want him to be happy. And the therapist said, well, do you want him to be happy or do you want him to be happy with you? And I said, I was like, what? I was like, he can't be happy with me unless he's happy with himself. And that is so true, right? It's like, you can't really fully love somebody until you love yourself. And trying to get external validation, you know,

Mathew Blades (: 33:00

Mmm.

That's it.

Tania Leichliter (: 33:22

from other things that might be temporary, that those dopamine hits, that you might get from an initial new relationship or whatever, that's really just not being true to you. I mean, because it's not gonna last forever. You still have to do the work on yourself.

Mathew Blades (: 33:36

Yeah.

Well, and I, you know, I give my wife a lot of credit. She had to be really patient in that transition. She had to be real patient and allow me the time and the space to do that so that I could show up better and so that I could be the husband that she married and so that I could be the father that, you know, I wanted to be for those kids. I don't pretend what I did is easy, right? Like the expression I use is blow up what you built. Like I built this thing for 28 years and then I just

freaking overnight blew it up. And that's not easy for anybody to deal with. I get that. And I give her a lot of credit for giving me the space to get that done. But I think she would say now that she's with somebody who is committed again and interested again and just wants to be in this relationship. And if you can't say that about your relationship, then that's why I think it's OK to

to like get in with people like you and figure it out and see how you can do this in a higher, like how can you move out of this in a high way so that the collateral damage is minimal? I don't know, it seems like you have a really healthy perspective on divorce and what it can be and how it can be. And I'm sure you've seen every side of it. You've seen the downright ugly and you've seen people who just nail it. And I wonder,

I know this isn't my podcast, but I wanna ask you, is there something that you see that's the point of differentiation between people who have an amicable divorce and then people who don't?

Tania Leichliter (: 35:10

That's such a good question. I would say fear. So I would say that when people have, I mean, all emotions for the most part come from the core, from some level of fears that we have. Tara Brock, who if you meditate, you probably know her work around mindfulness, but she talks about fear and how fear shows up in different emotions. She has this visual of this like animal with lots of different heads.

Mathew Blades (: 35:13

Yes.

Sure.

Tania Leichliter (: 35:36

So, if you are sitting a lot with financial fear, the immediate feeling is you're feeling the fear of financial insecurity. You don't know how you're going to support yourself. You've been a stay-at-home parent for X amount of time. How am I going to live my life moving forward? And you immediately go hire the lawyer to get you what you want because you believe that like there's going to be issues with

Mathew Blades (: 35:59

Mmm.

Tania Leichliter (: 36:03

getting what you want. So that is one place that people immediately go to the, I'm not gonna be able to support myself and therefore I need to go hire the heavy hitter lawyer. At the end of the day, every dollar you give to your attorney is one less dollar that you're gonna be able to get yourself. So people need to be thinking twice around that. So I think fear really does come in and then the second part is infidelity or

Mathew Blades (: 36:29

Mm-hmm.

Tania Leichliter (: 36:30

think that when somebody feels wronged, they believe that the courtroom is going to be the place by which they're going to be able to stick it to them. And they're just wrong because most states, almost all states are not no fault. And so it doesn't really get you anymore by pulling all that emotion into your legal negotiation. So I would say that those are the two kind of bigger places that I see people not being able to function amicably.

Mathew Blades (: 36:49

Hmm.

Tania Leichliter (: 36:55

And then, obviously, if there's some sort of substance abuse or physical abuse, I don't deal with it at all. I always refer out to that. People have to get to safety. People need to make sure that their children are safe. But if people can work on themselves, understand that they, with courage, they can be whatever they want to be, even if they haven't worked for 15 years.

Mathew Blades (: 37:06

course.

Tania Leichliter (: 37:19

Like it doesn't mean they have no skills. And so I work with people on being able to figure out what those skills are so they can get back into the workplace. It might not be something you put a resume together, but you know, if you've cared for an elderly parent, guess what? You can be a care consultant. If you have a special needs child, guess what? You can support other families that have special needs children. There's so much entrepreneurial stuff that people can do. You know, if you love babies, guess what? You can be a nanny.

So there are so many great ways that people can make money that they just kind of don't think about. So that to kind of answer your question there.

Mathew Blades (: 37:47

Yeah, sure.

I love that you've just said that because that fear piece is like, it's a juggernaut for almost everybody. And I really love the way you just articulated like your skills are transferable. know, when I, when I was thinking about leaving the radio and television career, it was like, I'm going to be fine. I've learned so much over the last 27 years that I'll be useful to just about anybody that'll have me. And you know that we all have that.

Because like you said, it doesn't have to be some corporate job where you had a 20-year career and they gave you the gold watch. Could be just you were the stay-at-home parent. But think about all the skills you have. my God, you're organized and you can follow a schedule and you can plan. That is not something everybody can do.

Tania Leichliter (: 38:39

Yeah. I mean, and there's so many like shared economies now, whether you could be a personal shopper, you can be an Uber driver, you could, you know, deliver food for scrub hub. I mean, there are so many things that people can do these days that can make your own hours, you know, because people are like, I can't go get a job because I've got kids. You know what? That's just an excuse. It's playing victim to your own circumstances. And there are plenty of things out there that you can do. You just have to change the mindset of I can't to I can and I will.

Mathew Blades (: 38:44

Yes. Right.

Tania Leichliter (: 39:09

And that's something that we teach, I can and I will. And if you wake up every morning and you say to yourself, I can and I will, you will be on the right path to moving your life forward, starting a new chapter. Get excited about a new chapter. I always say divorce is not about failure. It is about personal growth and self-discovery. And if you can flip the switch on that and you can continue to have that script in your mind, especially men that I taught you, they really get stuck.

Mathew Blades (: 39:09

That's it.

100%.

Tania Leichliter (: 39:36

on this idea of failure and it's

Mathew Blades (: 39:39

I've got a friend dealing with that right now. He's just, he's literally, he needs to jump out of that space, but he still sees himself as a disappointment. And it's, one of those things that we talk about a lot together. It's man, you didn't fail. Like the relationship just ended. So what did you learn from it? How do you want to move forward? It gets back to what I was saying a second ago about we carry this stuff and we carry it with us everywhere we go.

Tania Leichliter (: 39:55

Yep. Yep.

Mathew Blades (: 40:06

And one of my favorite things that I get to do now, Tanya, is, I speak in juvenile detention centers. And so I go and I speak to teenage inmates. And I love this work for a lot of reasons. But one of the things that I love to do in my sessions is every, I don't know, have you ever been to prison before? Okay, so in every cell block, there is this five-gallon water jug that the folks can go and fill up these small little cups and take a drink of water.

Tania Leichliter (: 40:21

I have not been to prison.

Mathew Blades (: 40:33

And I go and I grab this five-gallon drum and it's filled with water and it's really heavy. And I just hold it in front of them. And I say, this represents all the baggage that we are holding on to in our entire lives. And how far am I going to go if I just keep carrying this bucket with me everywhere? so then it lends itself to a great conversation. What we say is , how do we make room for new experiences? How do we make room for the newness?

We have to dump some of the water out. have to empty that vessel so that we can put more into it. And that's how I want people to start thinking about their lives. Don't look at it like your life is over or everything you knew was gone. You're just flipping the page. You're just going to the next chapter. We've all seen a movie before where there's a terrible scene and too many of us just hit pause. And we think that's our whole life.

Tania Leichliter (: 41:16

Mm-hmm.

Mathew Blades (: 41:28

It's not, man. It's gonna keep going. You're gonna have new chapters. You're gonna have new experiences. If you let yourself, right, that's the key. You have to dump out the water. You have to make the space for that. And then when you do, it's my opinion that life rewards you for those things. I was just listening to a great podcast the other day with Woody Harrelson and Ted Danson. Remember those guys from Cheers? And Woody said something so amazing, man. He said,

Tania Leichliter (: 41:51

Yeah!

Mathew Blades (: 41:55

He said, when I was coming up, every time I would get fired from a job, I would take myself out to dinner that night and celebrate because I knew something brand new was coming. And that's such a great way to think about it. It's like, it's not a disaster, it's not over. It's a new beginning. And to get back to yours, that's maybe where the fear comes in, right? Because it's a little unknown.

Tania Leichliter (: 42:05

I love that.

I was going through my utility room this weekend and going through all the books that I needed to give away because it's just become like big huge piles of books that nobody's reading anymore. But I came across a book that I actually reference a lot in my coaching and it was the children's books. And I don't know if you remember the children's books where you could choose your own ending.

Mathew Blades (: 42:22

Mmm.

A library.

Tania Leichliter (: 42:42

So you would get to these pivotal places and they're like, go to page 16 or then go to page 25. And I was like, that is life. You know, that is life. It is the fact that like, listen, we got to a certain point in this story and we got to choose to go to page 16 or 25. And that it is just a different ending. And when people begin to visualize that and be able to say, okay, yeah, you're right. I'm just choosing a different ending.

Mathew Blades (: 42:42

Sure.

Yeah.

his life.

Tania Leichliter (: 43:11

for my story, that it just becomes something that is more manageable and digestible because again, we don't have the ability to control everything in our lives. The only thing that we have the ability to control is our reactions to what happens in our lives, right? So anyway, I know we've been talking for so long and I feel like we can have like part two, part three, part four.

Mathew Blades (: 43:29

That's it.

Tania Leichliter (: 43:36

But I want everybody to know a little bit more about how they can find you, how they can find, learn from people who lived it, because you've just been such an amazing guest.

Mathew Blades (: 43:41

Sure.

Thank you very much. First and foremost, thank you for the work that you're doing. think, you know, when you look at the statistics of divorce right now, clearly it's happening more and people need you. People need folks like you who can help them make sense of this because there are so many emotions tied up in marriage and then ultimately the ending of marriage. And so that's great. My podcast Learned From People Who Lived It was born the Saturday night that I was in my retreat.

So I was two days into my retreat and I was sitting there on a rock in Sedona, imagine it. And I just had this feeling that I would use. So here's what I'm good at. What I'm good at is talking to people and being an interviewer and helping them share their most authentic selves, like the real core of who they are. And so I said, you're going to take this skill of interviewing.

and you're gonna sit down with people who have been through some really difficult things in their life, and you're gonna talk to them about how they marched back. How did they get their life back on track? And so at that moment, learn from people who lived it was born, and we are 200 and something podcasts into this thing now where every single week we sit down with me, my psychiatrist, Dr. David Lichen, or my psychologist, Dr. Frank Bavacqua with a guest.

and we talk about their trauma. We talk about those big hits that they had along the way, that big thing that happened to them, or those little tiny drops in the bucket, as you talked about earlier. And we sort of digest all of those things. And we say, okay, here's the story. Here's what happened. Here's how it impacted my life. But then here's how I put it back together. Because that's what I'm interested in. I'm not interested in...

Tania Leichliter (: 45:25

Mm-hmm.

Mathew Blades (: 45:27

Woe is me. The world is terrible. My life sucks. I can't figure it out. I'm interested in how do we solve this? How do we move forward with this? Because that's the transitional character energy. The transitional character is here to end dysfunction and make life better for the people in their lives. So we can't do that if we stay stuck in the same place. So this podcast is really designed so that people will come into it, they'll look around, find a story that maybe they can identify with. And we've talked to people who, you know,

divorce, rape, murder, domestic abuse, drug addiction, suicide, you name it. We've gone down that road with people who have overcome really incredible obstacles. And I'll tell you what's cool about it, is at the end of the day, the stories are all kind of similar. And I'm sure you see that in your line of work too. There are a few common throughlines to everybody's trauma. And what I've been able to decipher is that

for almost all of us, it's forgiveness or a hard conversation that is preventing us from getting where we want to go. We're either still holding on to something or we're too afraid to speak up for ourselves. And until you learn why, you probably won't be able to change your life. And that's what this podcast represents to me. That's what that retreat represented to me. It represented the why. Why do I keep making these decisions?

Why do I find myself in a space where I know I need to have this conversation, but I'm pulling back and I'm not speaking up for myself? And people do this all the time. And then one day you wake up and you're in a world that doesn't even look like the one you created for yourself. So I believe that, you know, the power of my podcast is to absolutely connect you with these stories and have you walking away going, all right, I'm not alone. Like there's other people that are dealing with this kind of stuff. And then more importantly,

walk away with actual tangible steps that you could institute in your life like today.

Tania Leichliter (: 47:24

Well, Matthew, I am so excited that you shared all this and I hope that everybody goes to learn from people who lived it. I know that I'm going to tune in for sure. And just anybody who's out there giving more people hope and courage to move forward in their lives, no matter what's happening, divorce being one of those transitional time periods. But there's so many more that you definitely can help and effect and get people moving in the right direction and knowing that what's possible is based on

what they believe is possible. So I thank you again, Matthew, for taking the time to be on Better Than Bitter today. And, you know, there's always another episode. So we will definitely have you back.

Mathew Blades (: 48:06

love it. I could, I love to end every single session that I have with somebody the same way, which is to say, you're not broken. There's nothing wrong with you. You just need to step into your life's purpose more. And those words changed my life and they have the potential, I think, to change other people's lives. You're not broken. There's nothing wrong with you. You just got to put this thing back on the tracks and I encourage you to step into that energy and just do it for yourself.

Tania Leichliter (: 48:34

Thank you again, Matthew. That's super powerful.

Mathew Blades (: 48:36

Yeah, thank you for having me. Continued success.

Tania Leichliter (: 48:41

So at the end of each episode, I like to focus on three top tips of things that I learned from our podcast guest. today with Matthew, I learned three amazing things and so many more than three, but today I'm going to summarize in three. one, you cannot control your life until you can control your mind. Again, if you cannot control your mind, you cannot control your life. So I said it in reverse, but remember that. Number two,

I know that we all have traumatic events that have happened to us in our lives, or maybe it's a bucket full of events, but until you can actually remove yourself from that particular event to realize that it is not your identity. So whatever happened to you in your life, it is just an event and it is up to you.

to take away the burden of that event that you have been carrying around for you, which has affected how you are showing up each and every day. So it's that victim mentality around that event that you need to let go and allow for it to just be an event. the last tip is about allowing yourself to be forgiven, meaning put yourself in that chair.

Close your eyes. of yourself walking over to yourself and allowing for yourself to say, I forgive you. So it doesn't mean that you are forgiving somebody else for some sort of wrongdoing. But if you are sitting there with a feeling of failure, then you need to forgive yourself because divorce is not about failure.

Divorce is about self-discovery and personal growth. And until you can walk over to yourself, put your hand on your own shoulder and say, it is not the fact that I have failed. This is not about failure. This is an opportunity for me to just change and move to the next chapter of my life. forgive yourself, accept

where you are in this divorce process so you can begin to rebuild. Thanks again and I look forward to seeing you on episode 10.

Tania Leichliter (: 51:12

Thanks for tuning in to Better Than Bitter, navigating an amicable divorce. Whether you are at the beginning of your divorce journey, midway through, or even done, we want the stories from our guests to give you hope that an amicable resolution is possible. If you'd like to dive deeper into today's episode, check out our show notes for a full transcript, reflections, and links to learn more about Better Than Bitter's coaching courses,

and how to connect with our fabulous guests. If you're ready for more support, you can head over to betterthanbitter.coach. Daily, you'll find details and additional information on our five-step game plan multimedia course, our one-to-one Zoom coaching, group coaching, monthly memberships, events and retreats, and a whole lot more. Plus, we've got a ton of free resources, like our monthly newsletter,

our private Facebook group, Instagram channel, and a library of articles and free webinars to help you along the way. When you go to our website, you'll be able to schedule a free 45-minute breakthrough call. Remember, we're here to help you reach an amicable resolution. Find your courage and believe in your brighter future because you know what? It is possible.

At Better Than Bitter, we measure success by what we give and not by what we get. So let's change the divorce dialogue together. It's time to be better than bitter.