Introduction (: 00:06

Welcome to the Better Than Bitter Divorce Podcast, where we flip the script on divorce and show you how to have a more amicable divorce resolution. I'm your host, Tania Leichliter a divorce coach, a certified life coach, and the mastermind behind the Better Than Bitter five-step game plan course, where I help individuals build a pathway towards a more amicable divorce resolution.

Each week, I'll bring you uplifting stories from people who've successfully experienced amicable separations, proving that divorce doesn't have to be a battleground. Whether you're overwhelmed with grief, struggling with custody and co-parenting, or just dealing with a high-conflict individual, this podcast is here to guide you towards reclaiming your life and being what I know is possible, better than bitter.

Tania Leichliter (: 01:09

Welcome to the Better Than Bitter Podcast, episode number 16. Today we have Carolyn Laredo. She is the owner of Law and Mediation PLLC. She has over 25 years of experience in administrative law. She's a judge, an arbitrator, a collaborative lawyer, a mediator, and a trainer. But what Carolyn

is especially known for her exceptional ability to guide families toward a more collaborative divorce resolution. And her passion for this work actually stems from her own experience. She grew up in the midst of a very bitter divorce from her parents, and it had a very long-lasting effect on her. And so Carolyn turned this challenge

into a chapter of her life where she went on a mission to help families prioritize their healing, work with them collaboratively and show those that are getting divorced that their children's well-being needed to be the center of all of their decision-making. So in this episode, Carolyn's gonna share her journey, her insights, and practical tools for navigating divorce with grace and compassion.

So whether you're a parent, a co-parent, or simply looking for a healthier approach to divorce, this conversation offers a fresh perspective and valuable guidance. Welcome, Carolyn.

Carolyn Laredo (: 02:32

Thank you and thank you so much for inviting me to your show.

Tania Leichliter (: 02:36

So Carolyn and I met and we just started basically networking in terms of trying to figure out how we can support each other in our initiatives. And both of us had this real passion for more of a collaborative approach. And not only collaborative but really having an amicable resolution for individuals getting divorced. And by talking to her, I realized that

Yeah, she didn't come from an amicable divorce, meaning her parents had a very tumultuous divorce. But that was what really drove her to wanting to be able to do things differently. So Carolyn, why don't you explain a little bit more about, you know, what your practice does, and then we're going to get into your journey.

Carolyn Laredo (: 03:21

Okay, so with regard to my practice, I utilize a co-mediation method. So that involves two mediators in all mediation sessions with the clients that we work with. I deliberately pick somebody of, different gender. I am the attorney part. I give legal advice and guidance, and tell people about their rights and obligations. And I also use my legal skills to draft the legal paperwork.

necessary to put together and memorialize their agreement into a contract. I can also, at least in the state of New York, enter the information into court as an uncontested divorce. In other states where I also work, and we could talk about that if you'd like later, I can do the same work, but I use a memorandum of understanding to summarize where the parties are going and then

local attorneys in that jurisdiction take that information and enter it into court on behalf of the individuals. With regard to my divorce mediation practice, so I got together with a male mediator about 20-odd years ago. And I did this because after mediating on my own for several years, I found that there were some

some individuals who started questioning, is this fair? they were just perceiving or feeling that there was an alliance even though there wasn't. I'm a woman, am I connecting more, with their wife? And then sometimes I had wives feeling that they needed empowerment.

of a male role model because they connected more with just maybe their fathers in their past. So I decided that I would expand my practice and test out a model that incorporated two genders with different professional backgrounds and one that I didn't have. my co-mediator has a background in adult education. He's trained in sociology, psychology, and child development and is a certified

parent coordinator. So he takes care of the role of addressing a lot of the children's needs as well and he's very comfortable with the financial aspect and financial division of assets and liabilities and those computations to really flesh that out with the parties together with me. So we got together and we are involved in all sessions. There's no additional cost.

to have both of us in there, I decided that that would be the added value to working with my practice. And what we have found with this model is that we really have been able to maximize problem-solving with our couples. We approach it from different mindsets. We hear things differently. Men and women do communicate differently. And I don't want to keep on going on and on, because I could go on forever

Tania Leichliter (: 06:07

one of the things I want to point out, and it's because, in the divorce world, we so often don't remember that people don't actually know the terminology that well. you had said uncontested divorce. So what could you share with our listeners in terms of what an uncontested divorce is versus a contested divorce?

Carolyn Laredo (: 06:29

Okay, thank you for slowing me down there, because I could get very technical. So happy to clarify anything. So an uncontested divorce is the goal that a mediator works towards with a couple, which means that the spouses are not in disagreement with one another. So they're not asking for the court to render a decision or have a hearing on the matter. So uncontested means you're not in a contest, you're not in disagreement with each other.

So it's entered in as uncontested. don't need a hearing judge. We are fine with the terms that we've agreed upon in mediation. Contested means you're in disagreement and you're asking the judge to intercede with a hearing and have attorneys participate in that process. Does that clarify it?

Tania Leichliter (: 07:17

one of the things that I didn't know when I was going through my divorce is that even in an uncontested environment, we still had to submit our agreement, and our financial disclosures, and we still were assigned a hearing and still were assigned a judge. And that judge still has the ability to review the agreement and to decide, if they believe that the agreement, even though you're in agreement walking in there if they believe the agreement is,

according to the court of law, or it's in the best interest of each of the individuals. I tell people, my first time in an uncontested divorce hearing, they rejected our agreement, even though we had brought our mediator, we just didn't bring our attorneys, and it was a complicated agreement, and the judge just decided to reject it. So can you kind of go into a little bit of that? Because of course, that's not common.

Carolyn Laredo (: 08:06

Yeah.

Tania Leichliter (: 08:10

but it happened to me.

Carolyn Laredo (: 08:11

So that is probably very state-specific, where some of the judges do feel that they want more of a hand in that process. And in those instances, I think, I mean, I would imagine that after you got feedback, did you all go back to the table, modify or consider the terms suggested by the judge, and then resubmit the paperwork?

Tania Leichliter (: 08:34

well, it's this whole story in itself. So she said she was going to send us that feedback. And she said we were going to get the rejection letter. So we waited and waited and waited, no rejection letter. And then we had to go find the clerk to figure out where the paperwork was. No record that anything was ever supposed to be sent to us. And then that judge got moved from our case completely.

and that there was no record. We just worked with one singular attorney, and tried to understand maybe what this judge didn't like. We made the adjustments. We resubmitted. We got a new hearing date and ended up on Zoom.

And so it ended up being fine. We had a new judge. Everything seemed to be good. But, you know, again, like, what would you recommend, if you have a complicated agreement and it's still uncontested, do you believe you should still show up with representation beside you just so the judge who only has five minutes to review the agreement at the moment that you're there? I mean, they are public employees, public servants. don't have

an hour to review your agreement. what would your recommendation be?

Carolyn Laredo (: 09:43

it certainly is beneficial to have your legal counsel then appear in court with you. And yes, there are states that do require, even if you are uncontested and you've mediated the terms, that they still want you to have representation. And I think a lot of that is because the judges just want to make sure that there was informed consent, no coercion. And it's a little bit of a CYA for them, right? Judges don't like to have appeals.

And so they want to make sure that they've made it clear on the record that the parties give consent to that. So that's also a protection for the judge so that they don't have too many appeals on their record, which again doesn't look too good.

Tania Leichliter (: 10:22

Yeah,

I think that we were nesting and she just had an opinion on nesting and she did not want for us to do that. And she was very clear that she believed that it wouldn't work. And we left there saying, well, we're not gonna allow for the judge to tell us how we wanna live our lives with our children. This is what's best for our kids.

and that we wanted to fight that because we had a very amicable relationship. And you know what? We're still nesting and it's going strong. And I feel really, really badly that the courts are tied or the judges are tied to people not coming back, right? And therefore they're putting their opinions out there, you know, in situations where things are really working really well and it could be in the best interest of the children, but yet, you know, we're still getting pushbacks from the courts.

what do you see? And if somebody comes to you and says, we want to nest, how do you, let me just give the audience a little bit of an understanding of what nesting is. So I'm using the acronyms too. So my ex and I decided that we were going to keep the family home as the family home. The kids stayed in the house and our second residence was a two-bedroom, two-bath apartment. had been lucky enough to have a guest room in the primary residence.

and we were lucky enough to able to have a two bedroom, and bath in the second residence. We were the travelers, the adults were the travelers. We went back and forth into the house and the children stayed in the house. And therefore their lives weren't disrupted. We didn't have to worry about where the cleats were or the backpacks or forgetting the homework or didn't know where that favorite shirt was. They slept in the same bed every night.

and it worked really well for us. And it still continues to work well for us. Our kids are older. Daughter's already out of the house. Son is a senior. So we only have like six more months left. So, in doing this. But what do you, if someone comes to you, Carolyn, and says, hey, like, this is what we wanna do. Well, how do you approach that? And what do you think about the way that the court is gonna look at it when you're advising your customers or your clients?

Carolyn Laredo (: 12:26

So I really feel very strongly, you know, as I think many mediators probably do, in the right of self-determination. That's the whole point of mediation. These are families and individuals who say, want control over my life. I'm not going to have a third party make any decisions for me. I know what's best for my children. We agree on this. This is our value structure. And those are the individuals who really end up in my office. And I think it's unfortunate, the experience that you had. And I'm

like truly sorry that you had that experience, I disagree with that. I think it's okay for a judge if they want to double-check, if they're concerned about asking the questions. I think that's their role, especially if there are minor children, to look out for the children, to make sure parents are as well. But I do think that if both parents are in accord, if both parents are in agreement, and they have had, you know, they've done their due diligence,

they feel comfortable with it and they verbalize that on the record, I think that should be sufficient to uphold the terms of that agreement without interference. guess I'm not surprised that you got a new judge after that. Maybe there were some issues, who knows? I'm not aware of what happened in that particular detail, right? But.

with regard to individuals who come to my office and nest and there are quite a few who do and there are quite a few quite honestly who if they can't afford to live separately but they want to be divorced sometimes they continue to cohabit in the house as well which you know which is another level of it's a special couple put it to that way I mean I tell people when they want to nest or continue to cohabit after divorce that you have to be a very special couple to do that.

Tania Leichliter (: 14:02

Okay.

Carolyn Laredo (: 14:16

You have to have very clear boundaries and understanding and really have the ability to put your children before your own feelings. the couples who work with me and who want that, that's in their agreement. It's memorialized. go through the pros and cons because, for that, I feel that that's the informed consent portion. say, are you aware that this could happen?

We build in provisions that allow people to have the ability to revisit that periodically and some protections in there for both parties to be able to see if that's still working and what happens if it isn't and who will make that evaluation so that it's fair. But I will tell you that the goal really is to have an agreement where you don't need to look at it all the time. That it's really there to say, this is what we're gonna have when we're not in agreement.

you know, we'll look at it, you know, but people modify their agreements all the time by a common understanding between them if it's working. So does that,

Tania Leichliter (: 15:15

Yeah. Yeah. I totally,

I mean, I hear what you're saying and I really love your honesty around that. think that, you know, for the nesting or I deal with a lot of clients too on the coaching side that want to cohabitate for at least a certain amount of time, right? So there are all these transitionary plans that we map out in coaching.

and we do what we call that transitionary plan. And I lived under the same roof for nine months, when we decided to separate and we had this, what we call this on-duty, off-duty plan. So it was a parenting time plan and Mondays and Tuesdays, I would have the kids on duty, and Wednesdays and Thursdays, he would have the kids on duty. And if there was nowhere to go when you were off duty and you're...

Carolyn Laredo (: 15:50

Exactly.

Tania Leichliter (: 16:04

you would like to join the family for dinner. There was a conversation outside of the kids' knowledge, be like, hey, I don't actually have anything going on tonight. Would it be OK if I was home for dinner so we could enjoy dinner as a family? And the open and honest of yes or no was OK. No, you know what? I really want to spend some time by myself with the kids tonight.

Do you think that maybe you could find something to do at least until eight o'clock? Like there was just, and we didn't take that as like a personal attack and that's part of it, right? And we continue to do that. We continue to have conversations around let's have a family dinner or let's plan something to do together with the kids. And there's always that, you know what, no, I worked really hard this week. I really didn't get a chance.

in my time to get to see them, do you think we can plan that for a different night? You know, there's just, it can be that. And I always tell people, like, it has so much to do with your own personal ability to manage your reactions, right? You can't control somebody else, but you can control how you react to them, and how you interpret and understand the stories and beliefs you've created for yourself based on things that are happening in your life.

Carolyn Laredo (: 17:09

Yes.

Tania Leichliter (: 17:23

and you have the ability to re-script and rethink, you know because that is where the amicable resolution is possible, right? It's only possible if one, you have clarity around those results that you're looking for, you know, for your children, for yourself, and if you can understand how your feelings are dictating how you're showing up and how you're acting.

And the only way you can really do that is by having that level of open communication, making sure you're checking in with your thoughts. If you have issues with understanding what somebody means when they're saying something to you, just do some active listening. What I hear you saying is X, is that what you meant by whatever you said? And then give that person the opportunity to just say, no, no, that's not what I meant at all.

Carolyn Laredo (: 18:14

Yeah. And, and, and that's why I'm saying that that's a special couple, right? Or a couple where both or each individual is possibly working with a coach to help them navigate through those discussions. In my co-mediation model, that's what I'm also hoping that my clients learn, which is they're able to see myself and my co-mediator navigate through discussions, sometimes catching each other in interruption.

Tania Leichliter (: 18:15

You

Carolyn Laredo (: 18:42

being respectful to one another, allowing everybody to finish what they need to say, to do that active listening. And so we're modeling that interaction for the people that we work for, that we're working with at that time. And so, you know, we're hoping that they pick up those skills and they're reinforced so that it's an easier transition as well for the children.

Tania Leichliter (: 19:04

So I want to, so anyway, I applaud you and your partner. What's your partner's name? Jim Bell. So I applaud you all for what you're doing. And I do believe that having a male and a female mediator will come into play. When I do some coaching for men and women, I tend to notice that men want men, and women want women.

Carolyn Laredo (: 19:10

Jim Bell.

Tania Leichliter (: 19:26

And for whatever reason they feel like that level of connection or understanding might come from some level of similarity in thinking or how they approach problem solving. So I applaud you for recognizing that. I'm sure it means a lot to your clients. So I do kind of want to jump into, you know, the why, why you got into this. And I always like to understand people's backstory.

and where they came from and understanding why this was so important to you. And it was based on a life experience. can you dive in a little bit in terms of your parents' divorce and what that did to you and trying to encourage people not to do what your parents did? Because that's part of this, right?

Carolyn Laredo (: 20:09

Sure, So my parents went through their divorce when I was in my late teens. And I know a lot of people say, when they're really young, that's when all the damage is done. could be done at any time, depending on how the parents react, right? And how they cope with the change, and how they respond to one another. So it really came as a shock to my sister and I. And things were...

digressed in their relationship during those teen years. when they started officially their divorce, probably in college and then throughout law school. And it was brutal. A lot of depression, a lot of acting out on both parents. think a lot of my sister and I were parentified. I don't know if we have to break that down.

I think it's sort of similar to what's being said, where we became more of the parents instead of the children in the family unit. And what ended up happening is my parents were utilizing two really strong litigating attorneys from Manhattan. They really lost communication and got very disrespectful to one another. And I think what changed the trajectory of my career when I was in school is that

I felt that some of the advice and some of the questions that were being asked of one of my parents were just too much for them at that time. And they were not thinking straight. They were in a very bad place emotionally. was very, my sister and I were extremely scared. And I reached out to that professional and that attorney and said, listen, they can't make these decisions. Can you just speak to them and have them?

maybe suggest that they seek therapy because I'm worried. We're worried that they may do something to themselves and we're worried. And the attorney, which I was really surprised, said to me, butt out, this is none of your business and hung up. And that was while I was in law school. And so I think after that experience, I really got jaded. I really felt like, wow, is this what I'm...

Is this what I'm contributing to? My vision of attorneys is to protect others, to enforce the law, to make sure everybody's rights are protected. And this is how they're treating. No wonder, is this how that parent is being treated by the attorney.

I myself started wondering whether I wanted to continue the study of law. And I identified without really knowing what it was that we really in the practice of law, the thing that is lacking is empathy. the it's it's really understanding that when you're working with somebody, you may want to win the fighting court.

Maybe you don't like your adversary's attorney. You've got an issue with them. You want to prove something. I don't know. There's so much involved, you know, that sometimes people forget that you're working with humans. You're working with a family. And we really need to pause and always remember the difficult times that people are in because human nature, most of us don't like change and we need time to adapt. And we need to keep that at the forefront.

So I thought that the best way to approach any type of conflict was through an understanding of psychology, conflict, and then the law. And that led me into mediation, which is what I feel covers that. But I will tell you that one of the things that saddened me the most is that my parents ended up with, really at the end of the day, a traditional agreement after

years and years of fighting and hundreds of thousands of dollars, you know, spent.

Tania Leichliter (: 23:52

Can you say

how much that was? you say that number again? Hundreds and thousands.

Carolyn Laredo (: 23:56

hundreds of thousands

of dollars. And I think the resentment to this day is that that was less for them to divide. They had less in that bucket to share between them to pay for things. And there was so much resentment that that still carries with them to this day. And I will tell you, my whole life has been impacted by the way that things were approached. And my sister as well, and my nephews, because my parents can't be in the room together.

You know, and when they are, it's really awkward and they don't speak and they're uncomfortable and their count, their new spouses are uncomfortable. It's, it's for everybody. It, we've never forgotten that they're divorced, put it to you that way. No one's ever moved on from that. And so it's really is important for me and my practice. And I do feel very strongly that there's no way that that's what I'm going to leave as my mark in the world.

You know, I really want to be here to help as best as I can. And I feel like my comedian and I are on the same page. We have the same mission. And, you know, we really strive to help people make that change in their life more comfortable for them so that they can be better for their children.

Tania Leichliter (: 25:12

Yeah, I completely agree. And the basis of Better Than Bitter and the platform that I've built and the scalability of what I've built is because you only have a certain amount of hours in your day.

Right, you and your co-mediator and everybody who kind of believes in both of our missions in terms of changing the divorce dialogue, having more access to amicable resolutions or learning how to have a more amicable resolution, how to kind of move through your emotional divorce to reach to a place of acceptance and forgiveness before you move into your legal divorce because the only person who's gonna suffer is you. If you haven't...

forgiven, not forgiving the other person, but the forgiveness you have to create for yourself to allow for you to lift that burden of resentment and anger in terms of being able to not carry that forward into your post-divorce life. Because the only person that's going to suffer if you do is you and your kids. Right. And so, I've created this five-step game plan course. It says five specific steps. And the last step is getting prepped for

Carolyn Laredo (: 26:08

Exactly.

Tania Leichliter (: 26:17

your legal agreement, your legal negotiation. But the four steps leading up to that are scaling that ability and access to that course to hundreds and thousands of people. So when they get to you, they're ready, right? And they're ready to move forward in an amicable way. Because when you step into a legal process and you're so emotionally charged and you want to stick it to them, it never works, right? I mean, you're just going to end up sticking it to yourself.

with the hundreds and thousands of dollars worth of legal fees. And you're going to end up, like you said, with this traditional divorce. I sat next to a woman a few months ago, seven years, $1.2 million. And she ended up with a house and the kids. if you are with litigators, if you have higher litigation attorneys, they will find problems and drama where they can.

Carolyn Laredo (: 27:02

call.

Tania Leichliter (: 27:11

if you've got the money, they will spend it. I mean, I hate to say that, and that's really general. I'm sure there's a main, many, good litigation attorneys out there who are ethical, compassionate, and empathetic. But in general, I always tell people, to start with mediation. Get as far as you can. And if there's one little thing at the end that maybe you can agree on, great. Have your attorneys go at it. Hopefully, they can come to an agreement.

before you go into that hearing and you can still have an uncontested, but if there's one thing that you just can't come to an agreement on, go to arbitration as an option or potentially go get the litigation, but make that the last step, like make that the last draw. I mean, don't you ever find people who maybe get to like 90 % with you and you're like, all right, like.

We've tried this a number of times, so maybe we just need the last 10 % of assistance with some help from somebody else.

Carolyn Laredo (: 28:10

Yeah,

that does happen. And I agree with you wholeheartedly, and it's not for self-serving purposes. It's just, that I really genuinely believe, that people should try and start with mediation because you can take one or two issues and either litigate that or like you said, arbitrate it. I think that that really hits the nail on the head. That is what I tell people. I also tell people if you're concerned, what happens if it doesn't work?

Well, try it for a few hours. you're not comfortable with it, it's a voluntary process. You can end. But at least you give yourselves an opportunity to take control, to learn, to understand, to gain a better understanding of where your spouse is coming from, because that may help that transition. And that will help the whole family unit and yourself. Right? I mean, you really nailed it. Yeah.

Tania Leichliter (: 28:59

Yeah,

I mean, I think that and I do want to just have some clarity for our audience who might not know what arbitration is. Again, you and I are sitting here throwing out words that people might not know. So can you just explain the difference between arbitration and litigation for those who might not know?

Carolyn Laredo (: 29:18

So arbitration is really, it's similar in the sense that the arbitrator is taking the role of a judge, making a decision for two parties who are unable to reach an agreement. The difference is for arbitration, you're finding that person independently, you're paying for them independently, and that decision traditionally is binding. You cannot appeal it. Depends on the arbitration agreement that you reach with the arbitrator, and what you all do, but that's traditionally the way it works.

You present your case to that arbitrator the same way that you would with a judge, but that arbitrator is a hired individual.

Tania Leichliter (: 29:56

And the other piece that could use maybe some clarity is that when two individuals hire a lawyer before they go into mediation. So a lot of my coaching clients will come to me and they have hired their lawyers or attorneys. And then I'm encouraging them to go to mediation. And they say to me, well, what do I do with my attorney?

and how do I communicate to my attorney that we now are considering mediation? What would be your suggestion to them?

Carolyn Laredo (: 30:29

So what I tell those individuals is that they should both inform their respective attorneys that they want to mediate, put it in writing, say this is what we plan on doing, to make sure that the attorneys can address any court dates that may be coming up so that no party feels pressured or they could use that court date as a guide that they work towards as a benchmark, how much can we accomplish up until that point?

So we strategize around court dates or ask for an extension for a court date to allow the individuals to work on things in mediation. Then from there, what we do is, so what they could do is use their respect, their attorneys as reviewing or consulting attorneys throughout the mediation process to give them advice and guidance if they feel that they need it or they can report back to their attorney, okay, this is what we've agreed upon. What are your thoughts?

anything you think I should come back to, or they can not communicate with their attorneys until the entire agreement has been addressed so that the attorney can see everything in full, review the document, make suggestions from there, and then the parties, if they need to, they come back into mediation to talk about one or two or some of the items that their attorneys recommend.

A lot of people do the hybrid process. I would say a lot. About 50 % will have reviewing attorneys. We certainly encourage it, especially if you feel like people need the double check on themselves or they're uncomfortable making decisions, they're feeling insecure. Certainly, they can do that. So those are some of the ways that it can be done.

Tania Leichliter (: 32:12

Yeah, that's exactly what we ended up doing in my divorce process. We had reviewing attorneys and we tried to get through the majority of the agreement and then allow for them to review. But if individuals come to me like, my gosh, I just paid a huge retainer to my attorney. If I go to mediation, what happens to my retainer?

Carolyn Laredo (: 32:34

Yeah, so retainers should be refunded if they're not used. those individuals can always go back to their attorney, look to their retainer agreement. All retainer agreements usually say they're refundable with it and they should be provided with an itemized bill for what was withdrawn from that retainer account. they can always ask for a refund and then assign a separate agreement with their attorney afterward.

to have review work done. So if they need those funds to pay for mediation, let's say, that's another way of managing those funds. But one of the things that I think is important for individuals to keep in mind is they're in control, right? Don't give up your control ever, right? So if you feel really strongly you want to give it a go, then it's okay. You can always retain that attorney again if it doesn't work out or if you want to use them for a different purpose.

Tania Leichliter (: 33:27

Well, this has been so, so informational. And not to jump back to your parents' divorce, but if you could give three kind of top tips on what not to do that you learned through your parents' process that you really believe derailed them to not being able to have a more amicable resolution reflectively.

Can you give us kind of three things that you would guide people away from? You know, if they find themselves going down this path, how can they kind of correct?

Carolyn Laredo (: 33:59

that's a great question. I would say, the first thing would be don't make assumptions. It's really easy to think that your situation is going to be like your friends or a family member who has gone through a divorce. Make sure that you keep in mind that your situation is unique. You have a different dynamic than other people, so be careful.

Where you get your advice would be one thing.

Keep an open mind, and don't be shut out of other options, even if somebody disagrees with you. Take that feedback on when you can process it and reflect on it because you may be shutting that down and it could be good advice, but you may be shutting it down because you're afraid to hear somebody who doesn't agree with you, but their advice could be very sound and you could be in a negative, self-fulfilling prophecy loop.

where you're in a place where you can't take on good advice. So it's really important to take the time to process, you know, if you have a professional, especially not just friends because again, they have different biases in there. They want to look out for you. They want to support you. And so they may think they're doing well-intended advice, but it may not be good for your situation. So really seek the advice of professionals who are in the field.

Utilize a team approach like a divorce coach. If you need to be empowered and you don't understand the finances, you know, it's okay to work with a financial advisor. I think you and I can certainly refer to some really qualified people to help empower that person who needs a little bit. Because as we know, people come to us as one, one spouse takes the role of finances and the other one sometimes takes a different role of either parenting or whatnot. So you're not an expert in everything.

So take the advice from trusted professionals who are vetted in the field, and really be able to use the opportunity to grow. Take this opportunity to grow and change. I will tell you that almost every person that I've worked with by the end of the process has transformed in some way. And I do attribute that to the open communication. And that's that aha moment.

of where you look in the mirror and you say, I get it. Like, this is me again. I'm finding myself again. You will get there. You know what I mean? And that's what I tell people. You'll get there. You're not there now, but you will, I promise. So I think those are the steps that I would guide people in. I hope that's three. I think that's three. It could be a little bit more.

Tania Leichliter (: 36:31

Yeah, those are

These three absolutely great pieces of advice. And I always tell people who are struggling with this feeling of failure that divorce isn't about failure. Divorce is about personal growth and self-discovery. And if you can flip that script in your own mind to really understand that that is, it's time to grow. And yeah, this wasn't the...

next chapter sequential to the storybook that you might have had in your mind. But just like those old books that we used to read where we said like jump to page 16 for this ending or you can page 29. Well, that's basically where we are when we get divorced and really getting to understand that fact that like, yeah, it's not that sequential chapter of that new book, but it's the choose your own ending and that it is a detour and divorce isn't

about failure. It's just about change and transition. And if you can embrace it and know that like being emotionally prepared for the legal negotiation and it is a legal negotiation, it is the hardest business contract negotiation you most likely will ever do. But that's what it is. It is just a business negotiation. It's a contract negotiation. So as much

emotion you can leave at the door when you enter into that process. So like you said, staying open-minded, listening to the professionals, thinking about, know, if you begin to get emotional because you are hearing something that was creating discomfort, just press the pause button. Say that you need to have some time with that before you jump to react, because a lot of times when you intellectualize it, again, as a business negotiation, you might see some clarity.

in terms of being able to see that path that somebody else had recommended. all this information, Carolyn, has been so good. And I really appreciate you being on this podcast. And normally, I sum up with the three top tips. But you did such a good job today of summarizing for our listeners today. And for everybody who is interested, Carolyn's information will be in the show notes.

So you can go ahead and contact her. She is the owner of Law and Mediation PLLC. And again, she works nationwide, even though a lot of her practice where she can actually draft the agreements is in New York, but you can use her in any capacity across the US. So again, Carolyn, thank you so much for being a guest on the Better Than Bitter podcast.

Carolyn Laredo (: 39:10

Thank you so much. was a pleasure.

Tania Leichliter (: 39:13

Thanks for tuning in to Better Than Bitter, navigating an amicable divorce. Whether you are at the beginning of your divorce journey, midway through, or even done, we want the stories from our guests to give you hope that an amicable resolution is possible. If you'd like to dive deeper into today's episode, check out our show notes for a full transcript, reflections, and links to learn more about Better Than Bitter's coaching courses,

and how to connect with our fabulous guests. If you're ready for more support, you can head over to betterthanbitter.coach. Daily, you'll find details and additional information on our five-step game plan multimedia course, our one-to-one Zoom coaching, group coaching, monthly memberships, events and retreats, and a whole lot more. Plus, we've got a ton of free resources, like our monthly newsletter,

our private Facebook group, Instagram channel, and a library of articles and free webinars to help you along the way. When you go to our website, you'll be able to schedule a free 45-minute breakthrough call. Remember, we're here to help you reach an amicable resolution. Find your courage and believe in your brighter future because you know what? It is possible.

At Better Than Bitter, we measure success by what we give and not by what we get. So let's change the divorce dialogue together. It's time to be better than bitter.