Introduction (: 00:06

Welcome to the Better Than Bitter Divorce Podcast, where we flip the script on divorce and show you how to have a more amicable divorce resolution. I'm your host, Tania Leichliter a divorce coach, a certified life coach, and the mastermind behind the Better Than Bitter five-step game plan course, where I help individuals build a pathway towards a more amicable divorce resolution.

Each week, I'll bring you uplifting stories from people who've successfully experienced amicable separations, proving that divorce doesn't have to be a battleground. Whether you're overwhelmed with grief, struggling with custody and co-parenting, or just dealing with a high-conflict individual, this podcast is here to guide you towards reclaiming your life and being what I know is possible, better than bitter.

Tania Leichliter (: 01:10

Welcome to the Better Than Bitter podcast, episode number 29. Today, I am so excited to introduce all of you to Dr. Gary McLean. He is a psychotherapist with a practice in New York City, and the focus of his practice is adults in transition. So romantic or family relationships, health, caregiving, work, career, loss, and grief. And as all of you know,

If you are going through a divorce, what you are going through is loss and grief. So he really does focus on effective interpersonal communication, having those difficult conversations. And in divorce, there are so many difficult conversations that we will be having. Today we are going to be focused on closure as the topic. Gary has written a book, The Power of Closure. And so these topics,

are what he frequently explores with his clients. Welcome, Gary.

Gary McClain (: 02:08

Thanks, Tania. It's really, nice to be here. It's an honor. Thank you.

Tania Leichliter (: 02:12

So in divorce, everybody will agree, you have this idea of needing closure. I just need this other person to say this, this, and this. And at that point, I'm going to get to move on. What do you think about that?

Gary McClain (: 02:27

I think it's something that I hear all the time. It's a grief process when you lose a relationship. When we lose, we grieve. And I think wanting the loose ends tied up, wanting to know, I think, is just human nature.

Tania Leichliter (: 02:42

So one of the things that I talk about, these three simple shifts in terms of mindset shifts that people should think about when deciding to move towards their legal divorce, because it's so important to process your emotional divorce before you step into that legal arena, because if you're so emotionally charged when you get in there, the only thing that's gonna happen is you're gonna spend a lot more money on lawyers fees.

And one of the things that I talk about is throwing away the why. Because when people move into their legal divorce, in most states, the why doesn't really matter. And I want you to tell us about that, why, that closure, that need.

for being able to have that other person say something to you that would justify, this divorce or this need for, he needs to admit or she needs to admit, to me that they were wrong or that they did something bad. Let's explore.

Gary McClain (: 03:41

Yeah, it's a really good point, and I think the advice you're giving here already is awesome. I think so often I talk to people who essentially are the attorneys, almost litigating the emotions before they can get to the material issues. And, you know, I think it's just human nature to want answers. We want to know.

And so often I think it's also human nature to want to be right. And if I have to be right, that means you have to be wrong. And so I think that needs to be right, that needs to be vindicated. But I also think, in a divorce, there is a lot of pain. You people feel deeply hurt. They often feel betrayed in one way or another. And the hurt is also tied in with anger.

As well, I have all these hurt feelings and these angry feelings. I want to feel better, and I need you to help me make them feel better. And I think that can be a trap, that we can get caught in the feeling of ultimately it's helplessness and human beings don't do well with helplessness. We want to know if I don't know, I'm stuck.

I can't move on, I'm stuck, I'm kind of helpless until I know that needing to know can keep us more stuck.

Tania Leichliter (: 04:53

And so let's explore this idea around pain because I believe that, in so many circumstances, pain becomes so overwhelming. And the work that we do in coaching is about, sitting with the pain. And I'm assuming that you, in psychotherapy, deal with sitting with the pain and not buffering and allowing for that pain to be there.

So take us through some of the kinds of exercises or work around the feelings of helplessness, the feelings that you can't control, you know, the pain that you're feeling. And so many people look externally for that, for somebody else to make that pain go away or something else, not even somebody else, but something else. So, talk to us a little bit about that.

Gary McClain (: 05:46

Yeah, I think that's a really good point. One of the things I often say is that sometimes the only closure you're going to get is acceptance that there's no closure, at least in the way that you think you need it, that you, in some ways, are demanding it. And, you know, I think we can get a certain amount of closure with someone.

And maybe even come to some kind of an understanding, this happened, okay, let's shake hands, hug it out, move on. It still doesn't take the pain away. It's still a hole in your heart when you lose a relationship, when you lose a marriage. And I think sometimes our desire for closure is not realistic because we also want to be pain-free. And I think that's just not going to happen. We might get some peace of mind, some agreement.

Some feelings, I can move on, a sense of, I'm ready. The hole in the heart is still gonna be there. I think we have to learn to walk with that pain and to accept the lesson, to accept that there were some good things, and there were some bad things. It ended, okay, how do I move on with my life? Now it's a new chapter. I think a loss of a relationship starts a new chapter, and I think closure can help us get ready for that.

But again, it may be the closure that we have learned in our own hearts to accept what happened, to be able to move on.

Tania Leichliter (: 07:00

So I love what you just said there. So it's not necessarily the closure, the external, that is creating that closure. It's the internal. It's that place where you are forgiving yourself for understanding. I have a hole in my heart, and guess what? That hole might not ever really go away, but having a level of acceptance for the pain that I'm feeling and not

looking outwardly for somebody else to solve your pain. So do you have some exercises that you take some of your clients through to get them to that place of acceptance and get them to have that level of forgiveness of self, not the forgiveness that somebody did an act, somebody had an affair, an event happened in my marriage that you know, maybe created this place of irreconcilable difference. And obviously, we don't have to forgive that event. We don't have to do that. But what we do have to do to move on is get to a level of self-forgiveness that you're allowing yourself to accept what is and accept the pain. So let's take some of our listeners through some of the work that they can be doing.

to alleviate some of the paralysis that comes through pain.

Gary McClain (: 08:25

Absolutely, sure. I use a cognitive behavior therapy approach with my clients, but I think part of it starts with just self-talk. And it's recognizing, okay, I did the best I could, and I tried, it didn't work for whatever reason, and I'm gonna work on being okay with that. I'm going to accept that that...

Maybe I could have done better, maybe the other person could have done better. I'm gonna get on with my life, I'm gonna accept. And maybe there's a lesson, did I learn something about myself? Did I learn something about my life that I can use going forward? Did this awaken me in some way? So I think there's that. I think embracing your life is so important. And you know, I think adults need two things. We need scheduling, and we need accountability. We have to be accountable to ourselves.

And I think embracing your life, saying, I'm going to start getting active again. Do I feel like it? No. Does that matter? Not really. I'm still going to get more active. I'm going to get out. I'm going to, as I feel ready, maybe a little balance between being at home, being out. But I'm going to get out more. I'm going to get some movement, some activity. If you work, I'm going to get back to my work. And I'm going to do things that center me, that ground me. That makes me feel like I'm part of the world. And I think it's really important to stay accountable to yourself, to stay active, and really embrace your life. Again, whether you feel like it or not, the feelings will catch up later. But right now, get out there and embrace your life,

Tania Leichliter (: 09:53

Yeah, I think that's so important. At Better Than Bitter, we have a membership support group. So we have a support group, and it acts as a membership. We have resources and courses and all sorts of things that people can participate in, not just the weekly support group. It's about bettering yourself every day, taking a mini course, watching a webinar, and committing.

To get yourself stronger, more courageous, and more hopeful, and also to connect with people. And I think that's what the most important thing that you were saying about getting out, and rediscovering who your authentic self is, right? Because, you know, we have this course called From Surviving to Thriving, and we talk about, Who were you pre-marriage?

Who did you become in your marriage? And then now who do you want to be now that you're getting divorced? And there's gonna be a nice combination, right, Gary, of who you used to be and who you became, and then being able to take the best of you and redefining you as you move forward. Then getting that movement, whether it's just physical movement or just.

Going out there and doing things that are unknown and facing the discomforts of being a new you, right? To be the new you, you have to figure out who you used to be that you liked, and then you have to go find those other people who were more like you, maybe before you got married, right? It's about creating new social circles. So this idea of, like you said, really

Gary McClain (: 11:19

Yes.

Tania Leichliter (: 11:27

focusing inward and not pointing fingers back out to get that closure you need. The closure is coming from you, right? The forgiveness, the acceptance of what is, because as you and I know, you can't actually control anybody else.

Gary McClain (: 11:47

Absolutely, we can't control how other people think, feel, or behave. And I had that conversation probably every week with someone. I think you bring up such good points here. We need other people. You know, we're social animals. We need other people in our lives. And really important to get out there and find.

People who know, kindred spirits who think and have similar interests, you to get reconnected with them. I think one of the ironies of loneliness is that when you're lonely, you want someone to knock on your door. And if people don't know about you, they can't knock. And so I think it's kind of a double whammy. You're lonely and you also have to do some of the work, you know, but I think taking baby steps, get out. There are so many ways now with social media and the services that you provide as well to get connected, to find ways to connect with people. I think, you know, part of this is, I think it's so amazing the support groups that you mentioned, because I think when you're going through a loss and a relationship is a loss, it's important to talk and to cry, to talk, to tell the story. Even if you tell it over and over, every time you tell the story, it clicks into place a little bit more.

And so I think talking is so important. When you need to cry, cry. You know, have a cry.

Tania Leichliter (: 13:02

Yesterday, even though my divorce was extremely amicable. And there are still so many moments when you're in a life transition that you recognize that life is just different. And that, you know, you might not be as prepared in that moment for the transition you might be going through. So to be perfectly vulnerable, like I just decided to sell the family home after, you know, my son is gonna be going to college and my older daughter's already in college, and I'm sitting on a very, you know, large family home. And I just made the decision, which wasn't what I thought the decision was gonna be. I thought I was gonna stay in the house for two more years, but.

I just, with the market conditions and everything else happening in the world, I just decided, you know what? I'm gonna sell. And all of those emotions that are flooding with the fact that this is the family home that I didn't expect to be selling at this point. And where am I gonna go? And where do I wanna live?

Gary McClain (: 13:56

time.

Tania Leichliter (: 14:14

How am I going to work with my kids to make sure that when they come home from college, they have a place in our home area to come home to? So you talk about closure in so many different ways, and you specialize in transitions and obviously not just divorce, but this idea around loss and grief. Well, I'm still going through the loss and the grief. It's just different from what it was a few years ago when I was divorcing, but now loss and grief are showing up.

In a different way for me. And I had such a good cry with a friend yesterday. I just needed to cry. all human beings, right? That we're all human beings. And I think that, you know, as strong as I might appear, it still can be a moment of relief and release.

Gary McClain (: 14:50

I'm so do-

high.

Tania Leichliter (: 15:05

So I feel that crying is so important because it gives you that release of where you are in that emotional state, but it also gives you some relief of feeling like you're holding it all together. And I know that in divorce, we all try, if you have children, you're trying to freaking hold it all together. Because you don't want your kids to see that, like,

Gary McClain (: 15:05

Yes.

Too much, George.

Tania Leichliter (: 15:29

You don't have it all together.

Gary McClain (: 15:31

Exactly, and I think it's ironic, and again, another irony is that when you do go off or with somebody or by yourself when you have a good gut-wrenching cry for 10 minutes, half an hour, an hour, whatever, you're able to pick up and move on. I mean, really, that emotional release is just so therapeutic. To sit down, have a gut-wrenching cry, 10 minutes, an hour, whatever you need, alone with someone, whatever you need, then you can...

and move on from there. And I think, you know, I think this, again, it's a new chapter, and humans, we're not wired for change. We don't really like change very much. And I also think that you mentioned your home. You know, we attach so many memories to our homes, to our possessions, to that sofa over there in the corner. We attach so many memories, and I think it's hard to let go. And I think that the way to help ourselves do that is to say, a new chapter.

What's new? What's coming up next? What's happening next? to, again, to embrace that, a new chapter, a new start. That can be exciting.

Tania Leichliter (: 16:32

Yeah,

I mean, and that again, that's where closure comes in, right? Because it's not that you forget those memories. It's not those amazing moments that you had in those homes, but it's about just moving to the next chapter. Like I said, you're not closing the book. You're just flipping the page. And, you know, I always say like life is full of detours, right? And

We can't predict any of our life's chapters, to be honest. One of my favorite books is The Celestine Prophecy, because if you look at life as a journey with a bunch of different detours, but each one of those different detours that you take, you're supposed to be having that experience and you're supposed to be gaining some sort of message or understanding from those moments.

It is just kind of a bunch of moments all strung together, and the power of, like I said, that power of closure and being able to move your life forward. That's what closure really is. It's not getting the solution. It's not getting the answer. It's just being able to move your life forward. And, right? It's...

Gary McClain (: 17:43

Yes.

Tania Leichliter (: 17:45

because that pain might still be there, the change element, the discomfort, like all those things, are still going to be there, and you can't be looking externally for it. And I love, you know, your two comments, like helplessness, that is once again, so prevalent in that need for closure and that idea around loneliness when you're getting divorced.

And I'd love to talk to you about loneliness, because I think about it all the time. Because when I get to that point of being lonely, and I think about loneliness, I try to coach myself out of what that thought actually means. Because I'm not alone. I have so many people in my life. I have my children, I have my family, I have an incredible

Gary McClain (: 18:25

you

Tania Leichliter (: 18:32

number of friends. And I'm not alone.

Right? I'm not alone.

Gary McClain (: 18:36

Absolutely,

very good point, absolutely. And you know, I have that conversation often, what you say you're lonely, you say you're alone. Are you alone? Nope, there's nobody there. And I think sitting down and looking at, I think it's, I often ask my clients to, here's an exercise for you. What's your foundation? And maybe go home with a sheet of paper or a computer or a smartphone, whatever you use. What's your foundation?

Who's got your back? Who's in your life? What are your gifts? What can you rely on when you need something? Your shaky day, shaky life, the foundation is still solid. And if there are holes in the foundation, then let's talk about plugging those holes. But you're not without a foundation.

And you're not without people, there are always resources. You have me, probably have family, friends, who do you have? Let's make a list, who's there for you?

Tania Leichliter (: 19:28

Yeah, and I think that so much of the loneliness might not be as much around companionship, but it is financial fear. So, doing it financially alone is obviously something that really scares individuals who are going through divorce. And how am I? I feel alone in this world

Gary McClain (: 19:47

Do.

Tania Leichliter (: 19:53

to provide for myself, and so, how can we work with clients who, I mean, it is a fear, and it could potentially be a real fear, right? Because they're gonna be living with half of where they are today. But yet, with the world of possibilities, they don't, doesn't mean that's the way they're gonna be forever.

Gary McClain (: 20:04

Yes.

That's right.

Tania Leichliter (: 20:16

That just means that they're gonna, this is their new starting point. So, how can we get them to the next level of understanding our foundation? You're filling the gaps. I have a companionship foundation. I have support, but I don't have financial support. So now what do I do?

Gary McClain (: 20:26

Yeah.

That's a very scary feeling, and certainly a lot of life comes down to economics, let's be honest. A lot of life comes down to what you can pay for and financial resources. I think closure in that way is often a reset. Maybe I've closed the chapter on this relationship, but it's a reset of my life.

And so I think sitting down and saying, what are my finances? Let me get practical here. I don't want to, this is uncomfortable. I don't really want to look at my bank account, my retirement, my, I don't want to look at this, but I think doing the numbers is really, really, really important. Maybe sitting down with somebody who can help you do that, give you some guidance, but I think it's so good, really good point, Tania, that the economics are critical here.

To look at, okay, what changes do I need to make? I'm doing a reset. The way things are this year may not be the way they are five years, but let me look at what I need to do now to protect myself, to get by day to day, and then look at how I can grow in the future. This is where plan A, plan B, know, really, I think really, really are important, and these are hard questions to ask. Nobody wants to think about money or lack thereof.

But I think a really important and very empowering process, and what I encourage my clients is like, this is going to be empowering to you potentially, to really sit down, look at the numbers, and then say, okay, this is what I can afford. How do I get that? This is what I can afford. Okay, what can I afford? To go through that process, it's really, it's empowering.

Tania Leichliter (: 22:08

Yeah, I just had a guest whose podcast is going to go live this week. And he is a vocational counselor who does evaluations on earning capacity. And so what they'll do is for those individuals who are getting divorced, and maybe one person was the primary breadwinner.

And the second individual might be somebody who might be at home taking care of the children, or maybe working part-time. But what is the earning capacity? Where are we today? And how can we alleviate some of those fears? Because understanding what you have the capacity to earn is really important. And then understanding from there, what kind of vocational skills do I need to grow?

In order to reach my full potential. So this company does both. So, for those of you who are listening to my podcast, definitely go and listen to the episode about earning capacity. Says a lot of this financial fear can be solved by having a solid foundation and knowledge about where you are today and what your potential is in the future. Again, it's about

gathering the information. And then you said something about, you know, a financial advisor. So in divorce, we work with certified divorce financial analysts. And what they do is they help you divide up those assets. So you are not just looking at a snapshot of what it's going to be the day you get divorced, but how do those decisions affect your wealth and health 30 years from now? So again, making sure that you have the right team.

Invest in the right team because it will save you dollars on the lawyer fees, because as so, if you can be super educated and informed going into your legal negotiation, you'll be better off. So that idea around hopelessness or helplessness, you know what? You won't feel that way if you surround yourself with knowledge and information. The idea of feeling alone.

You're not gonna feel alone if you believe in yourself because once you believe in yourself and your capacity to be an individual in the next stage of your life, and be able to support your children, it all comes back down to courage. I feel like I don't.

Gary McClain (: 24:26

Yes.

Tania Leichliter (: 24:27

You know, like, the power of closure is the power of courage.

Gary McClain (: 24:32

Really, that's a very good point, absolutely. Really, looking at your own resilience. What have I gotten through in the past? How can I get through this? really knowing, believing, believing, and that's courage, that you're a resilient person. I can do this. I can do this. I can make my life better. I can do it.

Tania Leichliter (: 24:50

Yes, I can do it. I have mantras, at better than bitter, that I really push forward. It's the can and I will. I can and I will. Because if you sit in this place as I can't, right, then you don't have the capacity to move your life forward. If you can send her, say that I can't do this alone.

Gary McClain (: 24:58

Yes, exactly. Yes.

Tania Leichliter (: 25:14

Yes, you can. You can do this alone. Right? Not only can you, but you will. You, right?

Gary McClain (: 25:15

Yes, absolutely and totally.

One thing I'm hoping here is I can't until. Okay, let's define that until. can't until. What has to happen? And are you again giving up your power? I have to hear this, or I have to see that, or this has to happen. Your life is today. Make it happen now. It's not until somebody else is we, know, harkening back to our.

Tania Leichliter (: 25:27

this thing.

Gary McClain (: 25:43

earlier conversation, your life is now. It doesn't happen when somebody else gives you something. Take control, take charge.

Tania Leichliter (: 25:52

I love that.

I can't until. And that is so interesting because again, that's looking externally for somebody else to take an action that you do not control. And so you are then giving all of your power to somebody else over your emotions, over your ability to move yourself forward.

Gary McClain (: 26:04

That's right.

Absolutely, that says it perfectly. Absolutely right, totally. That's right.

Tania Leichliter (: 26:17

I love that. And one of the other things about that is that, you know, when you blame people for how you feel, again, you give them all the power over your emotions. So-and-so is making me feel guilty. So-and-so said something to make me feel bad. So-and-so did something, and it made me feel anxious.

Gary McClain (: 26:26

Hmm

Tania Leichliter (: 26:41

And I try to flip the switch on that and say, well, so-and-so might have done something specific, an event happened, they must've said something, but how are you thinking about that? You know, cause it's the thoughts about that trigger that are making you feel guilty. You don't, you have a choice not to feel guilty, right?

Gary McClain (: 26:53

That's right.

Totally.

Exactly.

I think one of the jokes about therapists is that people will say, how does that make you feel? And actually, therapists, we try not to ask that question because we're telling our clients that other people make you feel a certain way. We want to empower our clients. You choose the way that you feel. Your perception of the situation, the way you're looking at it, your worldview, that's causing the way you're feeling. Change the way you think.

change the way you feel. Other people don't make you feel. You perceive and then you choose the perception, right? You have a choice here. We have a choice.

Tania Leichliter (: 27:33

Absolutely, and I call that in my practice the thought framework and it's the and my hashtag is hashtag rethink refeel so, when we rethink things when we stop Telling ourselves these stories when we create a belief system for ourselves That take us down an emotional path that just doesn't allow for us to show up for ourselves

Gary McClain (: 27:38

Mm.

Tania Leichliter (: 27:58

It doesn't allow us to act, react, and behave in ways that are going to move us towards that result we're looking for, right? So it's about reevaluating, rethinking, retelling ourselves stories that are going to move us towards the results we're looking at in our life, right?

Gary McClain (: 28:15

Yes,

We have a choice.

Tania Leichliter (: 28:17

We have a choice. So, okay, so we've talked about helplessness and we've talked about loneliness, kind of as like two things that really are those needs for that closure, right? You know, those are two. What would be the third kind of bullet point, you know, in terms of those triggers where people really are in that rut of needing some closure in their lives?

Gary McClain (: 28:41

You know, I think a big one is wanting an apology, wanting the other person to say they were sorry. You know, I think also, I think sometimes we get caught in, you know, there's that song from the 60s, think, Motown, Break Up to Make Up. You know, and I think sometimes we have that vision and that kind of fantasy in the back. Maybe we'll find a way to.

forward, maybe, you know, maybe, maybe I'll finally get the apology I need, maybe it's still a possibility here, you know, and I think, I think sometimes there's some magical thinking that also occurs, you know, I know this person, I've lived with them, I know it doesn't work, but, you know, could they change, could they apologize, could they, could they finally understand what I need, you know, is there a chance, and I, I think it's hard.

With divorce, I think it's hard to let go of that. Take some time. Does that make sense? Yeah.

Tania Leichliter (: 29:34

Yes,

totally. My favorite scenario, and I hear it often, is that one individual has an affair.

Gary McClain (: 29:41

Yes.

Tania Leichliter (: 29:41

And they blame the other individual for their affair. They don't take accountability, responsibility, and ownership that they had the affair. It was the reason they had the affair is that the other person wasn't showing up for them in the way that they needed to, right? So, instead of just saying like, yeah, I made a mistake. Had I been wrong in doing something.

Gary McClain (: 29:45

Yes.

Tania Leichliter (: 30:04

outside of the marriage, because you always have the choice, as you said, to get divorced and then have an affair. You have that choice. The choice is there. I can do it when I'm married, or I can just end my marriage and then have, I can have another relationship. But so many times, when individuals aren't getting their needs met, they look outside the marriage to get that, but they don't take responsibility.

Gary McClain (: 30:11

Yes, exactly.

Tania Leichliter (: 30:29

For that, they blame the other person. Like, like I'm not going to apologize. It's your fault. had an affair. You made me do this. It's your fault. So yeah, how often do you hear that?

Gary McClain (: 30:31

the other person except

Maybe do this. Exactly.

I hear that a lot, to be honest with you. It's heartbreaking because it's kind of gaslighting the other person in some ways. We use that term a lot, gaslight these days. But it's kind of gaslighting you. You had this problem, you had that. You weren't there for me. You weren't emotionally available. And I felt this way. You demeaned me, whatever. You ignored me, whatever. So I had to do this. I had no choice. And that's something I hear a lot.

It's sad. It's unfair.

Tania Leichliter (: 31:10

And it goes back down to what that individual is most likely struggling with, and that's shame. Because at the end of the day, it's not that they just did a bad thing, which would be guilt, but they actually feel like they're a bad person, right? And so, right? So when they feel like they're a bad person, it's really much easier to point fingers back at somebody else and say,

Gary McClain (: 31:25

Yes, and then one

Tania Leichliter (: 31:37

Right, this is the reason why. Yeah, like I'm not the reason. I'm not gonna take ownership of that. Now you did mention gaslighting, and I'd love a psychotherapist, the true definition of gaslighting. Again, like narcissistic behavior and gaslighting, it's such a really kind of overused term.

Gary McClain (: 31:39

Yes.

Tania Leichliter (: 31:55

So, coming from your perspective, I would love to encapsulate this kind of idea around gaslighting, when it is being used, when the right time to maybe define it as that, so we can get a better understanding of the right use of that language and when it applies. Then also maybe, you know, what to do with it when it's coming at you.

Gary McClain (: 32:19

Yeah, I think it is a term, and you bring up a good point, it's a term that we hear a lot. So I can give you my definition of it. My definition of gaslighting somebody is saying, You're imagining this. This is your anxiety, this is your distrust, this is your interpersonal issues. You're imagining this. This didn't happen at all. This is all in your mind.

And there was a play in the 40s, I think it was, called Gaslight. And a man is adjusting the, think he's adjusting the lighting up and down and telling his wife, No, you're imagining this. So it was Gaslight that he was turning up and down in the play. And so the thing that's basically saying, you're imagining this.

Tania Leichliter (: 32:59

day.

Gary McClain (: 33:02

anxious.

Tania Leichliter (: 33:02

But is there ever a time when somebody is imagining it and they misinterpret an action? So like, that's what I'm trying to get the definition around, right? Because sometimes, based on the way we interpret things, it could be all in my imagination. And it could be the story and the belief that I have told myself based on an action or something somebody had said, right?

Gary McClain (: 33:09

Yeah, the point.

Tania Leichliter (: 33:26

Somebody says something, somebody does something. It is my thoughts that are gonna create my feelings, and it's the stories and beliefs that I create. So sometimes we misaccuse or accuse somebody of something, but it is the actual story that I'm telling myself. And it's not the truth, not the fact.

Gary McClain (: 33:41

Very good point. Yes, very

Good point. Absolutely, you're right, absolutely. What I try to encourage and I try to do this in my own life is to use I statements and to be evidence-based. When you said this, you said this, and then you did this, it seemed to me, and this is the way I felt, as opposed to accusing. Once you accuse, the wall goes up, and then the defensiveness and the...

Shame-based justification begins. But if you say, said this, and then I read this, and then you looked at me this way, it seemed to me I felt this way. Let's have a conversation about it. And I think if we kept, if we use more I statements and kept things tentative, I saw this evidence to me, I felt this way as a result, we could have more productive conversations with each other.

And we wouldn't need the defensiveness and the gaslighting. We could have more authentic conversations.

Tania Leichliter (: 34:38

So when someone says something, you just check for understanding. So somebody says something like, I saw that you were scrolling down social media, and I saw three women come up on your feed.

I immediately thought, who are those women?

Someone might get defensive if you say that. I don't know who those women but it's about checking for understanding. Because I do believe we live in a place of interpretation can get really skewed. It's about what I hear you saying is X. Is that?

Gary McClain (: 35:17

Thanks.

Tania Leichliter (: 35:19

Actually, what you're saying or is that just my interpretation of what you're saying? Because again, I think we all make up stories. Some people immediately jump to the gaslight. You're not listening to me, and you're not validating the fact that this is making me anxious. I think that it's the power of active listening, right? It's just like what I hear you saying is X is that is that what you meant to say?

Gary McClain (: 35:32

Mm-hmm.

Tania Leichliter (: 35:39

Like, no, no, I didn't mean to say that. I'm sorry, did it come across as being insensitive

Gary McClain (: 35:45

That's getting closure every day. Closing every day with some closure that we're mutually communicating. And if I see that you can communicate or automatically get defensive, okay, well, that tells me something as well. That tells me something about us, it's something we need to maybe work on. But it's good.

Tania Leichliter (: 35:48

I love that.

And I think

In divorce, active listening is so important. So important, because if you go into attack and threat, they're only going to respond by attack and threat, right? But if you hear something that's coming from your soon-to-be X's mouth, just check for understanding. What I hear you saying is X. Am I interpreting that correctly?

Gary McClain (: 36:07

will do.

Yeah.

Tania Leichliter (: 36:27

because I don't want to misunderstand anything. Like you don't want to get the, let those stories go crazy in your head during divorce. You need to be very, very clear and make sure that whatever you're saying, the other person understands what you mean in every single sense. And if you don't know, then just ask. I'm not sure I'm really understanding, right? I'm not sure I really fully understand.

Gary McClain (: 36:48

Absolutely.

Tania Leichliter (: 36:52

Can you expand on that? Because the way that I'm interpreting it is X.

Gary McClain (: 36:55

Definitely, and I think that starts with having an intention of being clear and an intention of understanding and hopefully being understood as well. Not the intention of I'm going to make you wrong, I'm going to show you how awful you are, I'm going to make you really feel bad finally about what you did, but I want to be understood, I want to understand you and for us to come to some kind of an understanding even if we can't move on.

And that's think that's compassion for yourself and for the other person.

Tania Leichliter (: 37:25

that's so important to Gary because so many people who go into this divorce process, there's just such a lack of compassion on both sides because they don't have some clarity around what's important and what's important, especially if you have children, is that you can move forward towards a more amicable resolution.

So you can be an effective co-parent, right? So, in order to be an effective co-parent, you have to learn to communicate and learn how to communicate effectively. You need to be good active listeners and not misinterpret what the other is saying, what each other is doing, and constantly check for understanding. It is so hard to do. I do it with my own co-parent; I'm not perfect at it either.

Gary McClain (: 38:05

And if you're constantly feeling anger and looking for a way to kind of spew out that anger, you're going to find lots of opportunities, or you're going to create them. And it's just going to create more of a wedge and create more stress and anxiety. You know, who needs that? When you can make a concerted effort.

to communicate again, as you said. As you said so well.

Tania Leichliter (: 38:29

So we always end our episodes by talking about the three top tips that I got from today. So today, we really were focused on this idea around the power of closure. And closure really does come in so many different life transitions. And today we were focused on divorce, but the three things that we really hit on today were helplessness, loneliness,

and this need for an apology. And I think that Gary did such a great job in his book, and everybody should go and read his book, The Power of Closure. But, you know, when we're feeling helpless, we look for external ways to create closure for ourselves versus taking ownership and responsibility for dealing with our own sense of helplessness, right? Because you have to learn with positive self-talk and being able to talk to yourself compassionately that you're not helpless and that to move your divorce forward, you need to be able to have that level of forgiveness to reach a place of acceptance so you don't feel helpless, that you do feel empowered that your life is gonna move.

And then we talked about loneliness, and you and I both agree that loneliness, what is loneliness? Because are you truly alone? And we talked about your foundation. We talked about the foundation that you sit on, your friends, your family, and your children. Like, what is that foundation? And if there are holes in that foundation.

Like financially, maybe you don't feel like you've got two feet on the ground right now. Maybe that feeling of being alone in your finances, alone in your livelihood, the ability to support yourself on the look, well, that might be a realistic fear, but guess what? You can make sure that you've got a good divorce support system, like some sort of vocational counselor, learning your earning capacity, hiring a certified divorce financial analyst, and being able to understand very specifically where your foundation is and then how you are going to build on that. And then the third top tip today was about this idea of needing the apology and really asking yourself, like, what is that actually gonna do for me? Like, you want somebody else to say that, hey, it's my fault, but again,

Like, look internally, why do you actually need that? Because, by pointing the fingers back at somebody else to tell them that they're the reason why you're not feeling good or that you're not able to move through your pain because it's their fault, then you've given them all of the power over your emotions. So your need for an apology is only giving them the power over how you feel, because guess what? You might not ever get that apology. And so again, how long do you wanna stay in this position of being powerless? So, Gary, I am so happy to have you on our podcast today. Again, everybody should go out and get the power of closure.

And all of that information will be on our show notes, and how you can connect with Gary if you have more questions. And thanks. I really appreciate your time today.

Gary McClain (: 41:53

Thank you, this was a pleasure. It was wonderful to speak with you. You really know what you're talking about.

Tania Leichliter (: 41:59

Thank you, Gary.

Tania Leichliter (: 41:59

Thanks for tuning in to Better Than Bitter, navigating an amicable divorce. Whether you are at the beginning of your divorce journey, midway through, or even done, we want the stories from our guests to give you hope that an amicable resolution is possible. If you'd like to dive deeper into today's episode, check out our show notes for a full transcript, reflections, and links to learn more about Better Than Bitter's coaching courses.

and how to connect with our fabulous guests. If you're ready for more support, you can head over to betterthanbitter.coach. Daily, you'll find details and additional information on our five-step game plan multimedia course, our one-to-one Zoom coaching, group coaching, monthly memberships, events and retreats, and a whole lot more. Plus, we've got a ton of free resources, like our monthly newsletter,

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At Better Than Bitter, we measure success by what we give and not by what we get. So let's change the divorce dialogue together. It's time to be better than bitter.