Introduction (: 00:06

Welcome to the Better Than Bitter Divorce Podcast, where we flip the script on divorce and show you how to have a more amicable divorce resolution. I'm your host, Tania Leichliter a divorce coach, a certified life coach, and the mastermind behind the Better Than Bitter five-step game plan course, where I help individuals build a pathway towards a more amicable divorce resolution.

Each week, I'll bring you uplifting stories from people who've successfully experienced amicable separations, proving that divorce doesn't have to be a battleground. Whether you're overwhelmed with grief, struggling with custody and co-parenting, or just dealing with a high conflict individual, this podcast is here to guide you towards reclaiming your life and being what I know is possible, better than bitter.

Tania Leichliter (: 01:07

Welcome to episode 28 of the Better Than Bitter podcast. Today, I am so excited to welcome John May. John has worked as a vocational rehabilitation counselor since 1993. He received a bachelor's in English and American Studies from Williams and completed a master's degree program in rehabilitation counseling at Assumption University. As a fellow of the American Board of Vocational Experts, John May has worked

as a vocational expert since: 2005

Well, today we are going to hear from John and hear how he can help in your divorce process, not only just from an earning capacity perspective, but also in an upskilling perspective in terms of if you are learning and wanting to upskill yourself so you can have a deeper, more prosperous livelihood in the future. Welcome, John.

John May (: 02:24

Thank you. It's great to be here, Tania.

Tania Leichliter (: 02:27

You really opened my eyes to this whole other world that people who are getting divorced just don't even know exists. And part of that comes from my own experience in divorce and working through this idea around earning capacity.

And I think that many people, especially if there's like an imbalance of one person working maybe more full time and the other one staying home and taking care of the kids and taking time off from working in a workplace, but meaning maybe they're just managing the household, there's a lot of financial fear that comes forward during that time. Like, what am I going to do with my life moving forward in order to earn?

The other person, who is the one who has been earning, may believe that maybe their spouse was very highly educated and has the capacity to earn. And so, there becomes a real contentious place where two people might end up. And so what you and your company do is so fascinating to me. So if you could just explain, you know,

where you all fit in this divorce process, that would be incredible.

John May (: 03:42

Yeah, sure. It's great to be able to talk about this with folks who may not have any familiarity with what a forensic vocational expert does. In family law, it's relatively new. We've really been doing earning capacity assessments in family law only since the early '80s.

So, in a family law context, and in all contexts, in fact, the forensic vocational expert is a neutral expert.

While we may be retained by one party in a family law situation, our goal, as it's defined by the American Board of Vocational Experts, our client, is the truth.

So we are a neutral expert. We would love to be able to work more often in mediation,

Our objective is to simply find the truth about both spouses' earning capacity in order to assist the mediator in establishing what is reasonable spousal maintenance. And so the way that we do that is we

interview a person and establish their work history. And, of course, in marriage dissolution cases, oftentimes, a party has not been working for a period of time. So that has to be taken into account. So we really have two roles. And the primary function is to help the couple and their attorneys understand the earning potential of one or both spouses, okay?

A second function is the provision of vocational counseling services to a spouse who's unemployed or not working maximally. So we are not a counselor per se,

But we may outline a plan and say, in order for you to get from where you are into a place where you can earn the maximum amount, here's a potential plan that we might outline. And that's necessary because there are a lot of factors involved in assessing what someone's able to do, not able to do, and to find the best goals. There are two concepts.

I don't want to, and I'm sure you have other questions, but there are two concepts that are vital in our analysis. The first is what we call employability. Employability addresses whether an employee is ready for work. That is, whether they have the knowledge, skills, and abilities to perform a particular job. And we assess that through what's called transferable skills analysis.

We have some software that we use where we look at a person's work background, and then we translate that into what kinds of skills they might have in the broader labor market for different occupations. So employability involves that. The second concept is placeability. And placeability is, it determines whether an individual meets the hiring requirements.

of actual employers within a particular geographic labor market. So, because we know that jobs vary from location to location. So placeability is vital in family law matters because people may reside in a location where the assessment of transferability of skills in the national labor market may not apply as readily.

I guess you could describe those two concepts as employability, the ability to work, and placeability as the opportunity to work. Does that make sense?

Tania Leichliter (: 07:11

Yeah, so one of the big questions is what if, you know, because one person might be staying home to take care of the children, what happens to that? You know, yes, they're they've got the capacity in terms of skills and to place ability, there are opportunities in their area, but yet they have to then think about child care. And so in that mediation process,

you know, if somebody is, you know, has the skills to make $65,000 a year, and there are jobs in the area that are full-time positions that have opportunities at $65,000 a year for the skills that they have, but yet that would require them to hire childcare that would be at X amount of dollars. So I know that that's not what you do, but in the mediation process,

I know you just give the report, right? So I can just see that there would be this push-pull in that mediation process. Like, yeah, sure, like I have earning capacity, I have skills, there are jobs available, but then, how do they balance that with the children? And I know that, again, you have had your own personal experience in divorce. So maybe this is more of a...

question just from your experience versus your work experience, but I think that they are, you know, big question marks.

John May (: 08:35

Yeah, you're absolutely right. You know, that's just one factor. I mean, there are reentry problems. If a spouse has been out of work for a period of time, there can be disability concerns either of the evaluator or of a child, you know, and that may affect a person's ability to obtain or maintain work. There might be motivation questions if somebody is only working part-time and they have the capacity to work full time. Now,

As you indicate, we're not the trier of fact here, but we are also not going to neglect those issues as they impact someone's employability and placeability. We rely on our interview with the evaluie or the records to establish what the barriers to employment. Then, we try to identify options to overcome those barriers.

standard in any vocational counseling plan. I mean, I've worked with people directly as a vocational counselor and tried to assist them in overcoming those barriers to return to work. And there are so many resources in the community that may help with that. There's also, of course, now an increasing remote work option or a hybrid work option.

And that can be helpful in managing childcare responsibilities. So I would say that for me, that is generally incorporated into what the vocational planning component would be for a spouse. It has to be factored in, you know, when a plan is developed to, because...

Employability and earning capacity are not static issues. They're affected by ages of children, the nature of the labor market, the economy, you know, any number of factors, right? And so we have to continually look at these and establish a plan that's going to account for those changes going forward. But again, we're not going to make a recommendation to the courts about what is reasonable.

In terms of spousal maintenance, we're just going to say, if, you know, here is what someone's earning capacity is, and here's employability and placeability issues, and then here are possibilities to overcome those issues. Perhaps someone needs skill training in order to get into an occupation that may allow them to perform remote or hybrid work. Or,

Perhaps there are other options that we can look at to assist someone in returning to work at a maximum capability. That entails identifying those resources that are going to be supportive of the spouse in reaching their goals. You know, all these factors have to be taken into account. And that's why

You know, it's important to have a grounding as a counselor, a vocational counselor, in order to do this work. It's not just crunching numbers. We have to look at the entire life space of an individual and then reach conclusions that are reasonable based on the analysis.

Tania Leichliter (: 11:44

It's so interesting because when I first started hearing you talk, I was like, okay, I can totally see the person who would be in the partnership who would be initiating this evaluation. And my original thought was the person originating would be the earner, you know, because they are more concerned about, okay, well, I don't want to have to pay X amount of maintenance.

My soon-to-be ex has the capacity to earn, right? And so I want this evaluation to be out there so I can prove that that person has the capacity to earn so I don't have to pay them as much maintenance. But now when I'm listening to you, there's such value to the individual who might be at the stay-at-home or maybe they're only working part-time because the services that you're providing are saying like, hey, like, your capacity to earn is more than you're earning today or more than what you're doing today. But we are also going to help you define what that skill is that you have and be able to nurture that skill with upskilling and vocational educational services so you can be more.

than what you believe you have the capacity to be today. And I know as a coach, like so much of what I do is empowerment and getting people to say, can and I will, and giving them that feeling of hope that, you know what, I'm not gonna be destitute. I've got this. I can get the skills if I don't have them today, and I'm gonna do this. And I can do this in a way that is very structured.

And it brings that kind of feeling of the unknowns to a more known environment. So they believe that they have steps to take and they have support to get there. And I just believe that that is what is so triggering to so many people going through divorce, where they feel so much fear, financial fear, because they don't have...

those stepping stones. They don't have the guidance. They don't have the support. And, you know, in coaching, like we do a lot around do goals. And we do a lot in terms of being able to commit to yourself and moving yourself forward. And like this to me is like, I think everybody who is getting divorced, who is going through the mediation process or who has a desire to get through mediation, because this is going to be a real sticking point.

You know, if you're arguing about maintenance or alimony, depending on where you live, you call it different things, if that is an issue and that is where the contentious litigation potential is, being able to have a third party where everybody is feeling more confident and comfortable really could save you tens to hundreds of thousands of dollars in legal fees since you're not gonna end up fighting over that, right?

John May (: 14:40

Yeah, absolutely. A well-thought-out plan is essential for that kind of reentry into the labor market, right? Especially for a spouse who has perhaps been out of the workforce for a period of time or underemployed or part-time employed. The prospect of returning to full-time work is daunting.

Under any circumstances, the wage data shows that a person who is injured and out of work for over a year, over 95 % of them never return to earning the same wage. Now, that statistic doesn't hold true in family law matters, but in family law,

people still encounter that fear. They are uncertain about a vocational goal and whether it might be feasible in the current labor market. They may be concerned. If you haven't worked in 10 years, the advances in computer skill requirements are substantial. And I meet people all the time who are intimidated by the prospect of

Even people who worked with computers often, frequently, or even primarily 20 years ago say that their skills have atrophied to such an extent that they're no longer useful. So, you know, part of the evaluation is to say, okay, but you have these basic aptitudes and these transferable skills. The point of the transferable skills analysis is to

determine where those skills might apply, where they might transfer to different occupations in the labor market. The software we use looks at all the 12,775 occupations in the US Department of Labor database. And we say, you know, we want to look at labor market access, assess training and skill development needs, and provide some direction regarding vocational.

choice, wage and employment data, and how to get people from where they are to where they want to be. So it's so great to be able to work with a mediator and have that kind of translated in. mean, hopefully we're explaining it well. to have that support like, yes, you can go from where you are to where you want to be. And people like you and I who have been divorced.

understand these challenges and, you know, that they can be overcome, but it starts with the first step in the process.

Tania Leichliter (: 17:14

Absolutely, and I want to get into some real-life stories so we can kind of talk about some examples. And I have a couple of clients myself that I'm thinking about how this would be so well suited for where they are. Because when I speak to them about their skill set, they say, I've been out of the workforce for 15 years. And again, the same issues. I don't have the computer skills.

I don't have the time management skills that I used to have. And I questioned them. I was like, so what have you been doing for the last 15 years? Well, I've been running the household, taking care of the kids, and scheduling all of their activities. And by the way, I have elderly parents that have health issues. That's why I've been dealing with all of their doctors and managing their care. And I look at them, I'm like,

Wow, I was like, that seems like a lot of skills. was like, and in the shared economy, all those skills are transferable. You know what you could be doing? You could work for Instacart. You can go food shopping for people. Guess what? You could be a house manager for somebody else. You can do activity planning. You could be a driver for children. You could be a care consultant for older individuals who are having health issues. Huge industry.

So I, without your skill set and without your formula and your technology, am encouraging people to look at very specifically the things they are doing versus the things they believe that they can't. Again, it is just how you look at life. Are you looking at it from a glass half full, or are you looking at it from a glass half empty? Because...

All of our glasses are half full with something from a skill perspective, right? And so we have to focus on what we can do versus what we can't. And like you said, there are upskilling opportunities. are, mean, there's something called YouTube, you know, so if you really don't know how to do something.

You can always learn on YouTube and just take the time and commitment. There are classes, virtual classes, and on-demand classes to really teach you whatever you need to know. And I'm assuming your company helps in that way as well, like bringing people to where they can learn what they need to learn. So John, can you talk about maybe some real-life stories in terms of things that you've, you know.

couples that are getting divorced that you've helped and been able to see success in the work that you do and anybody, any feedback that you've gotten post the work that you do on the vocational service side to show people that this really is possible.

John May (: 19:52

Sure, you know, I was working with a gentleman who was in the tech industry, and he contacted me. He wanted me to evaluate him and his spouse. He previously had been earning at a high level as a project manager, but he truly was not well suited for that. eventually,

his employer, and this is prior to the decision to divorce, his employer had reduced his role to more of a customer support specialist. And so the issue was, you know, should he be evaluated as capable of earning at that much higher level than he had been, that he had earned before?

Or should he be evaluated at a more realistic assessment? Likewise, he wanted me to evaluate his spouse. Well, as it turned out, her earning capacity was not required. It didn't require evaluation. But his was really the sticking point. And they were on good terms. But this one particular issue.

was the sticking point. you know, I spoke with the retaining attorney, his retaining attorney, and we said, OK, let's just do an objective assessment. And so what we did is we looked at his prior earning potential, what he was doing now, and we kind of, after doing a transferable skills analysis, were able to identify options. They weren't at the same level because he just wasn't capable of

earning that any longer. But it did also lay out a plan like, okay, here's where he is. He can work in this customer support specialist role for a period of time. But through upskilling, you know, he may not have the aptitudes to do this, but there's only one way to find out, and that's to engage to embark on some upskilling to determine whether he can return to work and

more of a management-type position. So I kind of laid out both scenarios, short term and long term. And then I just left it there. I said, here's where you are. Here's what you're able to earn now. But here's where you might be able to go. Now, that case is still ongoing. I don't even know what's going on. They did resolve it for the time being. But that's the kind of thing that may come back.

Tania Leichliter (: 22:15

And

What does resolve it mean? that, so she was getting maintenance off of his current customer support role, and she was working at the...

John May (: 22:21

Fake weed.

Yeah, which was greater

than, in his earning potential was greater than what he had estimated because he hadn't explored the labor market in the same way that I was able to. And so, you know, we kind of put him on a path in what he was able to do. He actually got a state job where his benefits were good, which was, you know, very much agreeable to his spouse.

because he was able to take care of insurance needs and so forth, even though his income was lower, he was able to, you know, address other needs. And we also developed more of a long-term plan to say, okay, and if you do these, if you take these steps over the next, let's say, five years, you may be able to return to the private sector.

in an earn an income in a related job earning something comparable. and you know that that is the kind of case probably would have benefited from mediation you know and instead of litigation and I think that both attorneys handled it well and ultimately they did mediate a solution there and that's that is always the most satisfying outcome for me.

is when all parties are in agreement. Because I try to be neutral, that's very, very important in my line of work, even when the cases are highly contested. Our objective is always to kind of minimize the distraction around the emotional issues of divorce and just stay in our lane. We're going to do the earning capacity evaluation that's fair and reasonable.

Tania Leichliter (: 24:02

Do you have any examples where there has been a stay-at-home parent who is highly educated, but yet has made that decision to stay home to take care of the children? And then there is, in hindsight, the earner and that you were brought in because the earner was saying, well, my spouse has the capacity to earn.

and our children are getting older, they need to go back to work because I'm not going to continue to pay for them to be at home when the kids are at school, you know, 65 % of the day. Do you have a scenario by which you did the evaluation, and the person, the spouse that was stay at home actually was pleased to know what the, what her or his

earning opacity is. And then, reflectively, you went on to help them and guide them to be more secure about what their livelihood is going to look like in the future. Do you have a really good example of, like, the fear of this getting done at the beginning from the individual who's not working and then being able to say, okay, well, that was actually a good thing, and I'm glad I got that done?

John May (: 25:14

Yeah, I mean, there are, of course, many cases like that. Oftentimes, you know, let's take a common scenario where, you know, an MD marries an RN, they have children, and the mother stays at home to take care of those children.

And an RN who's employed for, you know, has a lengthy period of employment can earn a good living. Perhaps not, certainly not as much as most MDs, but still can earn a good living. But one who's been out of the workforce for 10 or 15 years and has been raising children.

may feel that their skills have lapsed, that the employment opportunities are not as available as they had been prior to marriage, and so forth. you know, we may lay out the plan. Again, in this role, we're not counselors to that person, to the spouse. What we are, we may lay out the plan, and then maybe,

you know, suggest a service such as yours, you know, to assist people in kind of overcoming the barriers that we identify in returning to work. And, you know, there are so many instances where, you know, that is a major, major barrier. And we have to look at,

you know, the age of the children, all these other factors to establish what is reasonable. And, you know, we have to have some understanding about what custody looks like in order to establish someone's availability to work. So we look at all those factors, and then we help to kind of identify the services that are going to reduce the fear.

Tania Leichliter (: 26:52

Yes.

John May (: 27:01

of returning to work understand where those skills, as you were describing so well, those skills that are developed by managing a family's budget, by caring for those children, navigating all the bureaucracies that we have to navigate as parents, those skills are useful in so many different business settings. And they may not translate immediately to historical transferable skills analysis.

But they can be accounted for. They can be identified and encouraged to build a career.

Tania Leichliter (: 27:36

this has been so enlightening, John, and really I feel that this needs to be folded in more regularly, into individuals who are hoping for more amicable resolution, for individuals that are open to starting their process and mediation, for those individuals who are living in financial fear or other individuals who are really just challenged with this idea.

of, my gosh, I'm gonna need to be paying maintenance or alimony for a certain number of years. And they believe that their soon-to-be ex has the skills and earning capacity to be an earner. Again, these are really very common issues that end up creating such a contentious relationship between two people who are trying to get divorced.

that they end up pouring a lot of that money into legal fees to fight it. And yet it's such an easy solution to have a third party come in and do a real evaluation. So, you know, what I always do at the end of all my podcasts here is I always talk about my three top tips of things that I've learned from the day. So I'm going to just give the audience the three things that they really should hone in on and what we learned today from John. And

The first one is that these kinds of earning capacity evaluations that get done, they're looking at very specific things. They're looking at one, the skills that an individual has? And then what is the opportunity based on where that individual lives? And those two things really come into what is this completed evaluation. And in divorce,

The third piece of that is looking at custody, looking at time available, et cetera. So we can really craft, or they can craft an understanding of what's possible for this couple, these two parents who are getting divorced. And sometimes, you know, maybe there aren't children involved, and they're still wanting to make sure that the earning capacity evaluation is done. And then the second thing that I really learned from this is that it's so important to include this in the mediation process, right? And that this is part of just the table of negotiation and that people should really be able to pull this in so they don't have to litigate. And then the third thing, very importantly, is that this is not meant to be a punishment or something that

my gosh, they're making me go and get a vocational earning capacity evaluation done because they don't want to pay maintenance and alimony. So even though that wasn't said, I can hear it already, with my clients and with so many people getting divorced. But what I want everybody to know is that that's not what this is about. This is about empowering you. This is about giving you hope, giving you the ability to understand where you are.

In this trajectory of capacity to earn and giving, you have some really solid stepping stones to get you where you wanna be in terms of your earning capacity. Stop being a victim in this process and be a victor. Take ownership, take responsibility, and take accountability for what you are capable of. And those really are three solid tips that I got from today. Just meeting with John.

And I'm so grateful that he came on to this podcast. It is such a, I love it when I hear about how other people are supporting divorce outside of what most people know exists. So again, John, I really appreciate your time today. So, everybody who's listening, you can find John May's information in the show notes. John, can you give everybody just a little bit more information about your company and where they can find you?

John May (: 31:29

Sure.

Sure, I work for Kincaid, Wollstein, Vocational Rehabilitation Services. You can find us at kwvrs.com. You can find me on LinkedIn. It's so gratifying to hear what you say about the value, not just in helping to resolve

some of these uncertainties in divorce cases, but also helping to support people as they try to return to the workforce or maximize their earning capability.

It's one of the most difficult times in a person's life, of course. But if you can look at what your assets are and you can build upon those, you can establish a life that works. Your family is not gone; it's just changed. And that's important to remember.

Tania Leichliter (: 32:24

such a great quote. Well, I really appreciate your time today, John, and everybody. As I said, all of John's information and his company will be in the show notes. So you can go and connect with him if you're interested in bringing this into your mediation process. Thank you again, John.

John May (: 32:42

Thank you so much, Tania. Great being here.

Tania Leichliter (: 32:44

Thanks for tuning in to Better Than Bitter, navigating an amicable divorce. Whether you are at the beginning of your divorce journey, midway through, or even done, we want the stories from our guests to give you hope that an amicable resolution is possible. If you'd like to dive deeper into today's episode, check out our show notes for a full transcript, reflections, and links to learn more about Better Than Bitter's coaching courses.

and how to connect with our fabulous guests. If you're ready for more support, you can head over to betterthanbitter.coach. Daily, you'll find details and additional information on our five-step game plan multimedia course, our one-to-one Zoom coaching, group coaching, monthly memberships, events and retreats, and a whole lot more. Plus, we've got a ton of free resources, like our monthly newsletter,

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At Better Than Bitter, we measure success by what we give and not by what we get. So let's change the divorce dialogue together. It's time to be better than bitter.