Introduction (: 00:06

Welcome to the Better Than Bitter Divorce Podcast, where we flip the script on divorce and show you how to have a more amicable divorce resolution. I'm your host, Tania Leichliter a divorce coach, a certified life coach, and the mastermind behind the Better Than Bitter five-step game plan course, where I help individuals build a pathway towards a more amicable divorce resolution.

Each week, I'll bring you uplifting stories from people who've successfully experienced amicable separations, proving that divorce doesn't have to be a battleground. Whether you're overwhelmed with grief, struggling with custody and co-parenting, or just dealing with a high conflict individual, this podcast is here to guide you towards reclaiming your life and being what I know is possible, better than bitter.

Tania Leichliter (: 01:08

Welcome to episode number 27 of the Better Than Bitter podcast. Today, I'm so excited to invite Michael Sallustio who is a former attorney and entrepreneur. He actually practiced law for five years, but then he went out and pursued his passion for health and nutrition. He owned several other related businesses, but then he ended up going through his own divorce and he had a massive custody battle. And he just took this as a sign that he was now

supposed to go out there and pursue practice in more of a mediation type of environment versus an attorney. And he specializes in child access cases. So in addition to volunteering in the district court of the ADR program, and ADR is Alternative Dispute Resolution, he is on several circuit court rosters throughout the state and runs a private practice, both as a mediator and a parent coordinator.

He specializes in high-conflict custody matters, and there certainly are many of those. Michael also has a lot of personal experience with specialized training and working with families of children with adverse childhood experiences, which are called ACEs, which are more of what we consider neurodivergent issues. So welcome, Michael.

Michael Sallustio (: 02:23

Thank you, Tania

Tania Leichliter (: 02:24

So, Michael, I always kind of take it back a little bit because I have everybody that's been on my podcast either has been in a divorce situation themselves or they're a child of divorce, whether an adult child that had experienced divorce, whether that was an amicable divorce or a contentious divorce. So if you don't mind kind of talking a little bit more about your divorce, because obviously that was the really big pull.

that brought you back into law from another entrepreneurial endeavor.

Michael Sallustio (: 02:53

Certainly, it was somewhat unexpected, but we'd been married for roughly 13 years and we had a daughter at that time, she was four years old. We decided we were getting separated and gonna pursue divorce. And it went fairly amicably at first, and then attorneys got involved.

And things kind of went sideways as tends to happen. Listen, I'm a former attorney myself. Not all attorneys are bad, but some have their heart in the wrong place and they're representing their client, which is the parent in these matters, versus the best interest of the child. And that's where things kind of go sideways. So things turned a little ugly. And then we just, over the next three or four years, it was battling over custody,

Tania Leichliter (: 03:14

Hmm.

Michael Sallustio (: 03:35

where our child was going to spend her time and how we were going to make decisions about our child. My daughter is now 21 and off at college. And when I was in the middle of this, I never saw that happening. I thought this is just going to go, my daughter is going to have a horrible life. but I've managed to salvage it. And I'm actually still rebuilding that relationship with my daughter because it took some hits during that whole battle.

Tania Leichliter (: 03:58

So what are some of the common reasons why people won't go 50-50? What are some of the biggest issues about custody that the two parents involved aren't just like, yeah, we're just going to split our time?

Michael Sallustio (: 04:13

The issues are so personal as to the other parent. And I think that's the problem is things get muddled. They get cloudy because the parents can't see straight when they're just focused on this other person who did something to me in their mind. And so I've got to either do something to them or I've got to prevent them from getting what they want. Very often, that's the case. You either one side is feeling that way and it's mucking things up, or both sides feel that way, and that's where the high conflict comes in.

Tania Leichliter (: 04:41

Yeah, I always

talk to my clients in my divorce coaching practice about the courts are not where you want to stick it to them. The problem is, the only person that actually suffers is you and your financial situation because you're spending more money on legal fees, because you're really trying to get back at the person to make them feel the pain by which you're feeling.

It comes about what people are trying to do to alleviate their own pain. And they're not thinking about what they're doing to their children in the process. Is that what you see?

Michael Sallustio (: 05:14

Absolutely, it's quite frankly what inspired me to really get into this kind of work is that I saw the research and it's pretty solid by now. There's a lot of it on what happens to kids later on in life when they're in the middle of this kind of a mess. And that's where the ACE kids come into play. And that's what inspired me because the thing is they're not only suffering in terms of higher suicide rates, higher unemployment, more failed relationships.

physical ailments like heart disease and cancer. And that's where it just opened my eyes and I'm like, wow, I've got to be a part of the solution to this problem rather than part of the problem. Yeah.

Tania Leichliter (: 05:47

So let's take an example. So someone comes to you, and it's a couple, and they just said, you know what, we're gonna try to mediate because we know that it'll save us money. And if we can even get 60 % of the way through mediation, we'll do that. But as the couple enters the space, you know, your mediated space, you realize that one of them had had an affair. So, which is a very common quote unquote event.

that occurs that breaks, is a breaking down of the marriage. And especially one of the individuals is extremely hurt, is experiencing a lot of pain. They feel a lot of betrayal. So how do you get these two individuals, when you know there's been an event, to see through the pain they might be experiencing and to refocus their energies on their children?

Michael Sallustio (: 06:38

Well, unfortunately, sometimes we have to work through that offense, so to speak, before we can get anywhere. Because at least one of them is not going to be open to discussing any kind of compromise and what's best for the kids when they still feel like they're the injured party. that...

violation, we'll just call it, was never acknowledged or owned up to. So, sometimes, the first session that I spend with them is getting through that. if I can get the parent who had the affair to at least, if they even acknowledge that they did. Sometimes, they don't. But if I can get them to acknowledge it and get them to even to a place of apologizing for it, sometimes the walls just come down and we can move forward.

But if that's in the way, we're not likely to make a whole lot of progress.

Tania Leichliter (: 07:19

Yeah, and of course, that's why I got into doing what I do on the coaching side, because we hope to deliver people who have processed some of their emotional divorce before they step into the legal process. So, you have a more free, clear pathway to get them to the finish line. So they're not processing that pain in the wall. They're making decisions because then their decisions become emotional decisions, like you said, right?

Michael Sallustio (: 07:45

Yeah,

absolutely.

Tania Leichliter (: 07:47

Yeah. So, okay. So what happens when, you know, you can't seem to get through that? Like when the two individuals, so we're talking about custody here, we're talking about their children, and one of those individuals just can't seem to see the light, like to see what the importance is of this child having two loving parents in such a huge capacity part of their lives. Like, how do you get through that?

How do you get to an agreement?

Michael Sallustio (: 08:16

Well, sometimes I'm gonna have to separate them and talk to them individually. And if it's the, as you described, if one party is feeling so hurt that they can't see straight to what's best for the kid, then I'll have a private conversation with them. In our world, it's what's called a caucus. I'll put, you know, a lot of this stuff's done on Zoom nowadays. So I'll put one parent in the waiting room and I'll talk to the other one privately.

And that's confidential. That conversation is confidential. After we're done with that conversation, they'll give me permission to share either certain aspects of that, what was revealed, or none at all. But what it does is it gives them the opportunity to share what they're going through and feel heard about it. And that really is what it comes down to. A lot of these parties who are stuck is because they don't feel like they've been heard or acknowledged.

And so if I can do that for them, and that's what we call creating a safe space, then they can sometimes then see, OK, now I can focus on this other thing, which is what's best for our child.

Tania Leichliter (: 09:09

And it must be hard as a mediator because, again, you're not taking a side, right? I know we went through mediation, and, you know, they can't really say to you, like, I think you should try for this custody. You can't use this opinionated, you have to be a neutral. So how do you go about being a neutral in that world?

Michael Sallustio (: 09:29

Yeah, it's a learned practice for sure because all of us have biases. mean, judges are supposed to be neutral, but they all have biases. We all know that. So I've gotten better at separating that, reminding myself in the process, because sometimes this stuff touches things in me. Like, this looks like what I went through, or I know what you're talking about because I felt that before. And I've got to be careful not to do that unless...

Tania Leichliter (: 09:44

Mm-hmm.

Michael Sallustio (: 09:52

I feel it can be useful and we're later on in the process and you just get them over the hump and I can share our personal experience, but I got to be careful when I do that. But to really just to get through all that, I'm going to have to make sure that they feel heard. And sometimes I'll say, is so you're saying this and make sure that they they agree with my characterization of it.

And then if they do, then oftentimes, then they feel a little freer to be able to share what they want. Does that answer your question?

Tania Leichliter (: 10:24

Yeah, it does mean, do you ever give like a scenario by which like if you make this decision, because you believe that you're soon to be X doesn't have the capacity to care for the child or doesn't have the skills because they've never done it. I mean, how often do you hear that? Yeah. And, you know, so what we do in coaching is that I was like, yeah, you know why they don't have the skills? It's because they haven't

Michael Sallustio (: 10:43

Yeah, very often.

Tania Leichliter (: 10:52

And I always say to them, you would be very surprised on how quick people learn how to do things when they are given the opportunity to try.

Michael Sallustio (: 11:03

Yes,

absolutely. Yes. And sometimes that is a common scenario that you're describing where, you know, they've got a hearing coming up and we're trying to avoid that hearing, right? That is one of the goals. We're trying to get them to work this out versus a judge deciding for them, in which case statistically they're back in court in six months to a year because they don't like that decision, right? So I explained to them, don't you want to be a part of this decision? Don't you want to be part of this plan?

If you don't have confidence that the other parent can do their job in parenting your child and not harming your child, how do we know until we give them the chance, right? So the other, let's say that the parent that they don't trust wants 50-50. Well, this parent that's holding their position doesn't trust that other parent is saying, well, there's no way we're going 50-50. I said, okay, so can we, I'll make a suggestion. Can we try,

25-75 for a period of time, a trial period, I'll call it. And if they prove themselves, then we can give them more time, right? In other words, why not put it to the test? Because your only alternative is handing it over to a third party who's not gonna listen to your whole story the way I'm listening to it, you know?

We have, let's say, two to four hours to discuss these options, whereas you go before a judge, they may give you 15 or 20 minutes to tell your side of the story and they didn't wanna get down to business.

I mediate in a dozen different counties in Maryland. But in my particular county, we've got 13 judges on the bench. And so that's great because I can tell my clients when I do what's called reality testing, I can say, OK, let's say you don't agree to this right now, you go to court, and you hand it over to a judge. There are 13 different judges.

there might be 13 different ways that can go. Are you willing to take that chance? Because you don't know which way that judge is going to go. You think that you're going to be right, but I can't tell you how many people go into court thinking they're right. The judge is going to see it my way and they're surprised. So do you, are you willing to take that gamble or do you really want to try to dig in here and see if we can work this out? And it's going to take some compromise. You're probably not going to get everything you want, but again,

It's what's best for your child. And what's best for your child, quite frankly, is when you two are working together. Because the conflict is what creates the trauma for the child. So you've got to figure out how to meet them. If it's not halfway, you've got to give in with something. So let's prioritize what those things you're not willing to give out and what things you can probably live with, right?

Tania Leichliter (: 13:27

Yeah, I do the same thing before they step into the room with you. We talk about the desired outcome. Like, what do you envision your life looking like, feeling like? And then let's go back to the details and let's get some priorities on paper. So when they do walk into mediation, they know very specifically where their priorities are and what they're willing to negotiate around.

You know, most of the thoughts are just thoughts. They're stories that they're making up in their head about assumptions around the way someone else is going to react, behave, et cetera. And again, they don't know that for a fact. They just assume that it's going to be the same old, we try to get them in a different mindset before they move into work with you, because again, if they have that mindset management skill,

they can talk themselves and coach themselves as you are working with them to get to an agreement on specific, very sensitive matters. They can be like, okay, well, I prioritize X, Y, and Z. And those are the things that it looks like I've been able to have float to the top to go my way, but I have to be able to manage my mindset around the other things. And specifically, I do really know for a fact...

that the whole thing around capabilities and capacity and abilities to raise children, if one person's been the primary caregiver, and that's where their identity is, that that's where they believe, that's who they are. They don't believe that the other person can do it, and they might not do it the same, and that's the other thing, right? It's like...

You're like, yeah, well, maybe they're not gonna make peanut butter and jelly sandwiches exactly like you are, but you know what? They get to have other things, and there's gonna be other ways of kind of getting up in the morning and getting the kids to school. And you try to create some level of consistency, but sometimes flexibility is good for kids.

Michael Sallustio (: 15:20

Absolutely. To your point, it's great for a child to see different ways of doing things. The fact is that you two share this child together. Both of you, on the court side, both of you have a say. Both of you have a right to be with that child and make decisions for that child. So the sooner you accept that, then we can start to get to work on moving what's best from this point forward versus

staying stuck in what he did to me or what she did to me and how this person used to operate. And as far as you know, sometimes these people have been apart for six months to a year or longer, and they don't know how the other person lives their life. They don't know if they've changed. All they know is what they experienced with them. And so you have to, I try to convince them to give the other person a chance to prove you wrong.

Because that's what you have to be to work together. That's what you want. You want them to prove you wrong. Don't you want your child to have two good parents versus the one that you see now, who is a horrible parent? Now, let's give it a chance and explore it.

Tania Leichliter (: 16:17

Absolutely. And I also really encourage my clients to support one another in their new roles, meaning that I know with me and my ex, you know, he always managed all the finances and I always worked and made money. But I also did like all the food shopping and did 90 % of the cooking. And we kind of had to divide and conquer for some, like kid activity registrations. But I did all the medical for the kids. And instead of just throwing him to the wolves and saying like,

Michael Sallustio (: 16:22

.

Tania Leichliter (: 16:45

Just go figure it out. he asked questions about the grocery store. He now has different places that he might go to food shop, but like the kids might like food from certain places. And so I wasn't going to throw them to the wolves, and cooking like that was so overwhelming to him to have to put the three meals on the table every day and

And I encouraged him and I wanted him to be successful in making food that the kids liked. I didn't want them to be like, mom's food's so much better. But there are so many people who want that. They want that feedback, like I'm better. And I'm like, right? It's like, why? Why do you need to be better? Because it's about the kids.

Michael Sallustio (: 17:16

Yeah.

Well, I'm sure it's one of the reasons you do what you do now because you are sort of the exception to what I see as the rule in these cases, which is the parents just want to prove each other wrong and prove to the child that they're the better parent. And it's not the way to go about it because what I remind parents of is that a child instinctively knows that mom and dad are part of her. Right.

So, when the mom makes a negative comment about the dad, the child takes it personally. And that again is a source of trauma. You can't go there. I see parents do it all the time. And this is where I'll be firm in my mediation role. And I'll say, you just can't do that because that's not good for the kid. You're forgetting why we're here.

Tania Leichliter (: 18:03

Yeah, you are my fifth guest, by the way, who has used that exact example, the 50-50, that every child is 50 % of mom and 50 % of dad. If you are a parent disparaging the other parent, the child consciously or subconsciously is saying, I'm 50 % bad because I am part of that parent that the other one is talking badly about. And it's so amazing and so great in the divorce professional world. Like everybody.

every role, we are all on the same page with that. We're all pushing out the same message and it's so important for children. And I just can't say enough about what you're doing because I just want more people to recognize the fact that they've got to work on themselves in order for them to not have and create long-lasting trauma for their kids.

Go fix whatever the pain is that you have around your divorce, but don't make it something that you're going to use your kids as a pawn in that process.

Michael Sallustio (: 19:04

Yeah, you can't weaponize your kids, you know? Honestly, I made mistakes in my custody battle, and I acknowledge that. There was a point when I realized that I was getting sucked into that drama, so to speak, where my daughter would come home to me and say, you mom says this, you did this and you did that. And I'm like, you know what? I'm not gonna do tit for tat here with you. I mean, this is the voice in my head that was telling me this, and okay.

Be the better man. How are you going to respond to this? And it's really hard as a parent to do that because you want to defend yourself. But you can't defend yourself in that way because then you're saying the message to your kid that dad says mom is lying. Whether the kid believes that or not, it's not a good thing. You don't want the kid to think one of your parents is a liar, and you don't want

one parent saying bad things about the other parent. So there's no way that that's a good scenario. So I'll just say, well, listen, whatever concern you have, just tell me what it is and you and I can talk about it. All I can do is be the best parent I can be in that situation. I can't try to change mom, and she can't try to change me because we are who we are. And quite honestly, a lot of times we'll get to the point in the mediation where I'll have that moment with the parents and I'll say, look,

Stop trying to tell the other parent how to parent and how to be. You've been trying that for years. It's not working. It's why you're here. All you can do is focus on your own behavior. Accept who the other parent is, good or bad, because you have to figure out how to respond to it. And that's really what it's about. It's controlling your own behavior in that situation.

Tania Leichliter (: 20:35

Yeah, I always tell people, it's like you cannot control what other people do, say who they are, but you can control your own reactions to them. So, the only thing that you have control over is your reactions. And your actions and reactions come from an emotion, right? That you're feeling at the time, but your feelings aren't coming from a circumstance. Your feelings are coming from your thoughts. And so, you know, we teach this thought framework at Better Than Bitter that our life circumstances,

or the facts, the things that people say, like they are creating ruminating thoughts in our brain, right? And those thoughts are what create that emotion. And that emotion is what creates the reaction, action, or behavior, right? And that action, reaction, and behavior create an outcome. And if you want to have an outcome that you have deliberately created some clarity around, you have to behave and act in a certain way. Like if you want your kids to...

not suffer from long-lasting trauma, how do you need to be showing up? In order to show up that way, how do you need to feel? And to feel that way, what do you need to be thinking? Right? It all comes back down to our thoughts. And that's the only thing that we really have control over is the way we think about things and getting people really trained to do that work in a moment's notice in their life to be like, all right, do I know that's absolutely true?

Michael Sallustio (: 21:40

See you.

Tania Leichliter (: 21:56

You know, is that a fact or is that the story of it? Yes, of course it is.

Michael Sallustio (: 21:58

Well, it sounds like Byron Katie. Do you know who Byron Katie is?

her work a lot and I use it for myself. I share with my clients. So you know the work, the four questions, right? The first question is, is that true? And nine times out of 10, when someone's caught up, they'll say, yeah, it's true. But when you ask the second question, can I absolutely know that it's true?

I defy you in most cases to be able to say yes to that because you can't. And that's where you get tripped up. And that's where you realize that your thoughts are running amok. And you've got to short circuit that.

Tania Leichliter (: 22:23

You can't.

Yep, I talk about what I call the truth and your truth. Right? So we've got two truths out there, the absolute truths and the truths that we've created in our own minds. Right? So it's great in mediation. I mean, I think we're all supporting each other in that way in the process. I think that one of the things that people don't really understand, and I have to say almost everybody who comes to me is like, I need to find a lawyer. And I look at them, I'm like, why? You know,

Michael Sallustio (: 22:35

Yeah.

Tania Leichliter (: 22:57

Like I think we should start with mediation. And why do you believe that so many people just believe they have to lawyer up and that mediation is something that they don't believe they're gonna be able to do?

Michael Sallustio (: 23:09

It's typically one of two reasons or both. The first is fear. They're going into this process that they don't know anything about, and they're terrified that they're gonna screw up, they're gonna miss something, and the lawyer is gonna be able to protect them. And quite honestly, that is true in a lot of cases, right? You want, before you sign off on any agreement about our parenting plan, by all means have a lawyer look it over. Make sure your ass is covered, so to speak.

But the other reason is sometimes, and I hear this a lot, I want to get a bulldog attorney, they call it, to get my spouse or to get my ex. And that's the wrong reason to do it. Because to your point, that's not going to accomplish anything positive for your child. And even if you get that attorney that does that and is really good at that and you win in court, what do you have to show for it?

You've got a lot of trauma to show for it. You've got a lot of money that you're now in the hole with because that's thousands of dollars. You're starting at 10 grand in a cost-treated battle, and it's probably going to be higher. I spent 30. And some of these cases are even higher than that, depending on who your lawyer is. So, for what? Why are you doing this? Check yourself and ask yourself those questions.

and see if it's great if you want to get an attorney, but let's try this first, and then if it doesn't work, you've got that option.

Tania Leichliter (: 24:20

Yeah, I say you always need to have a consulting attorney. you know, throughout the mediation process, as you get to your agreement and you're making headway and you're agreeing at portions of it, yeah, you take the portions you've agreed on, you get a consulting attorney, make sure that, you know, that's going to be good in court, you know, be, you know, work in your hearing. And, um, but you don't have to spend a lot of money on that. I also believe that

you have to hire the right attorney because I know that I did not hire the right attorney to be my consulting attorney. I knew very specifically what I wanted and that what we were wanting because we were in mediation, we come to an agreement and then they start tearing it apart. I'm like, no, no, that's not what I want you to do. I just want you to dot the I's and cross the T's and make sure that it's legal. But don't start trying to convince me that I can go get more and blah, blah,

Yeah, because that's in their benefit.

Michael Sallustio (: 25:16

Absolutely. know, and so real quick, I just remembered something that I wanted to mention the Byron Katie work and one offshoot of that that I use in my process when parents are stuck and they can't see the other person's point of view is what's lacking in this situation is empathy, right? And I think you have to get there somehow if it's possible. Some people can't go there, but you've got to be able to see the others, put yourself in the other parents ' shoes before we're going to make any real progress.

So one of the questions I ask them individually, so that they don't feel guarded when they're answering this question with me, just so they can see themselves what's going on is, in what way is the other parent, do you feel self-conscious about their role as a parent? So it requires them to put themselves in the other parent's shoes in a state of vulnerability.

And the second question, which is a great follow-up question to that, is, in what way am I contributing to this conflict? And I will tell you, nine times out of 10, the answer to that second question is taking advantage of the weakness of the other parent that they named in the first question.

Tania Leichliter (: 26:18

Hmm. That's super interesting. Yeah. So interesting. I, yeah, you know, you, when you live with people for a long time, you know, their weaknesses, you know, their vulnerabilities. And, know, once again, you go back to the sticketing, sticking it to them, you know, you're trying to poke them where it hurts. And,

Michael Sallustio (: 26:19

And that's really important. Yeah.

direction.

Tania Leichliter (: 26:37

That is not gonna be what's good for the kids. And the other thing is once you, like, quote unquote win in court, if you decide to go into, like a litigation, contentious litigation, you still need to co-parent with this individual moving forward. And so that like a massive amount of contentious conversations and communication, it rolls over, you know, into the co-parenting environment and.

You know, the kids don't deserve that. I, I hate, I remember sitting at a table with a friend and, know, her son was home. He was in high school. And I think there was like a changing of the guards night. The son was supposed to go to his dad's, and dad did come pick him up. You know, like I said, he was in high school, but he didn't have his license. And, you know, the, the banter was like, you know, what does dad think he's doing? You know, he's supposed to figure out the transportation.

I'm not supposed to get up. You know what? Just get up and drive the child to the dad's house. Why does the child need to hear all the things that the dad's not doing right? So, because if you want to have that conversation, it's okay. You pick up the phone later, hey, I dropped so and so off, but I want to remind you next time that, when we do change houses, you know, we had made it a point that it was the responsibility of the other parent to make sure they have transportation. A little bit of the BIF method, right?

Michael Sallustio (: 27:26

Man, Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. The VIF napping, right? My daughter, you know, she's got some, some, some wisdom, and she always has. And when she went about 16 years old, when we were still sort of jostling back and forth, you know, with fighting for time with her. What you don't want to do is use your kid as a messenger. And that's what was happening. We were both doing it.

Tania Leichliter (: 28:07

No.

Michael Sallustio (: 28:10

And my daughter, to her credit, just put up a boundary and said, I'm not doing that anymore. You guys work out your own shit. I'm not doing that anymore. So leave me out of it. Tell me when it's done. And we can go from there. I'm like, wow. mean, your kids can teach you stuff.

Tania Leichliter (: 28:24

they do. said some, we were like on speakerphone with like my son and my ex and myself and we were having a conversation and I think I said something and I thought it was very direct and my son looks at me, he's like, mom, you're being very passive aggressive. And I'm like, I'm like, I am? I'm like, you know, I immediately had to rethink what I said. I was like, okay, 'cause I just thought I was being direct. He's like, nope, that was very passive.

Michael Sallustio (: 28:39

Hahaha

Yeah.

Ha

Tania Leichliter (: 28:49

And then I thanked him later because I rethought about it. And I just said, I really appreciate the fact that you brought that to my attention. And you're right. Thinking back through what came out of my mouth, I could see how that might be construed as being passively aggressive. And I appreciate it because I don't want to be that way. That's not how I want to communicate at all. And he smiled like he just had a grin ear to ear. Like, he just felt so good about

himself and the fact that I was open to constructive criticism and how to do things better. Because I only want the kids to hear positive communication, healthy communication. So, when I stepped into mediation, I had no idea what I was doing. I had no idea what I was supposed to prepare. I didn't. I just showed up. And I would say 99 % of people just show up.

So, let's talk about day one. What is your expectation or what is your wish for how people arrive into mediation?

Michael Sallustio (: 29:49

I make it clear what my role is from that first session and the beginning of it. And we'll go over the housekeeping, to speak. And I'll say, look, I'm not here to decide who's right and wrong. I am a neutral party. And I am not a judge or a magistrate. So if you have any intentions of proving anything to me by showing me evidence, you've got copies of text messages and emails, and I don't want to see them. It's not my role.

So what we're doing today is we're gonna, I just wanna hear your story, why you're here. And if you wanna go into a little history, that's fine, because sometimes it's helpful. But if we get bogged down in that, then I'll move us on from that. But let's just start off getting to know why we're here. But if there are kids involved, which is 90 % of my cases, then we're gonna focus some time in the beginning on, tell me about your kid. Because I want that to be the focus from the get-go.

So I want each of them to chime in on how their kid is doing, you know, by their observations, what their kid's likes and dislikes are, what kind of kid are they? Are they more reserved or outgoing? Are they doing well in school? Do they have any health issues? Get the focus on the kid. And sometimes that'll just bring a smile to their faces because they get to share about their kid, you know? And that's the focus. And I'll even ask them for a picture of their kid, and I'll...

Tania Leichliter (: 30:56

Mm-hmm.

Michael Sallustio (: 31:01

If things are going off the rails halfway through the session, I'll pop a picture of the kid up on the screen and say, One minute, you're forgetting where your focus is supposed to be. It's right here. Act like your kids are in the room right now. Are you going to say that kind of thing now? And you know, it's just a check. It's a reality check.

Tania Leichliter (: 31:16

So are you hoping that people have done some work on the financial asset side when they step into your office, that they show up, maybe they have met with a CDFA, they have a really good understanding of what their potential asset divisions could potentially look like, have a couple of different scenarios, do you like people to be that prepared when they walk in?

Michael Sallustio (: 31:37

So when it comes to the property financial issues, it's always secondary if there are kids involved, and we'll do that in later sessions. But in preparation for that, I have a very detailed asset liability budget questionnaire. It's 10 pages long, and they got to fill in the blanks and they're listing all their assets. They're listing whose names on what accounts, what debts they have, all that stuff.

Tania Leichliter (: 31:49

Mm-hmm.

Michael Sallustio (: 31:58

So yeah, sort of queues them up to if they don't know some of this information, they got to go find it before we meet. I want them to come to the table with all that.

Tania Leichliter (: 32:05

Okay. Okay.

first session, in summary, first session, you walk in, you get to know the couple. What were the irreconcilable differences that broke down the marriage, just so you get a better understanding of what their roles are most likely in the marriage? Like, do they both work? Is there one person that stays home with the kids, et cetera, getting a better understanding of their dynamic? The second thing is that you get to know their child or children.

Michael Sallustio (: 32:26

Yeah.

Tania Leichliter (: 32:32

You try to understand their behaviors and what their interests are. If, like you said, they're extrovert, introvert, maybe they're super athlete, maybe they are a homebody, maybe they're flexible, maybe they have OCD, who knows, right? So that you get to know the child so you can really guide them into what they need to be thinking about. And then the third thing is the complete, this is what you need to gather, 10 page questionnaire.

that it's gonna get really detailed around the assets and everything else, because it sounds to me that that is almost more cut and dry than the children piece of it. Once you have all of the information and you're looking at it, then it's just kind of moving pieces on a chess board.

Michael Sallustio (: 33:15

Well,

Yeah, we have to know what we're working with on the property and the things, right? So the frequent sticking point, common sticky points are gonna be what's gonna happen to the house and what's gonna happen regarding retirement accounts. Those are two big areas of that's where they'll hold their ground or that's where they feel like, now my attorney has to be involved. That's fine. We get to the property fees. I don't allow attorneys in custody mediations at all. We're talking about the kid and the schedule and decision-making around the kid.

There are no attorneys in my sessions, and every mediator is different, but most mediators agree with me on that. When it comes to the property stuff, I would love for the attorneys not to be there. But sometimes if they're in the fear mode and they're, or you've got one spouse who's not working, they're going to need some supportive income. And the house might be part of that. Then they're going to have their attorneys there and not one by both sides to have their attorneys if they have them at that point.

But very often, I talk them into doing it without the attorneys first.

Tania Leichliter (: 34:09

So, some of the things that I also see is that people want to have custody of their kids because they don't want to pay as much child support. And do you see that?

Michael Sallustio (: 34:19

Unfortunately, that is the motivation sometimes, and you can usually see through that just based on like if a father has been sort of a let's just call it a deadbeat father or sometimes I see mothers in the same role where they're haven't been contributing much to the parenting role, right? And now they're in mediation because someone filed for custody, and now they're saying, oh, now I want to be more involved. Oh, that's clearly why that is because now I'm going to be paying out some monthly child support because

at least in this state, in most states, I think it's kind of like this, where the child spends most of their time is the other parent's going to be paying more child support because they're helping support that child while the child's in the other parent's care. And they know that. Either their attorney has told them that, or they've been told by a friend who's been through the same thing that that's a deal. And they're fighting for custody for that reason alone. They don't want to admit it, but...

Sometimes, another reason is they're looking at what they're saying, you

Tania Leichliter (: 35:14

Yeah,

I find that very difficult. And I also believe that I hear that on the other side in coaching. So the concern is that, yes, the father or the mother hasn't been involved. And the fear is that now they know they're going to need to pay for the non-involvement. And the other spouse gets fearful that that is the reason why they're asking for custody. And therefore, they're living in fear around intent.

because of course, they want to protect the wellbeing of their children. And again, I try to explain that, well, maybe you didn't give them a chance to parent, you let's go through that. Maybe the reason why they weren't as involved is because you didn't let them be involved. Let's talk through that, you know, was that a scenario? Like, and like you had said earlier on, can you just give them a little bit of responsibility and time and see how they do and then continue to do that. And you do that.

Michael Sallustio (: 36:07

Yeah.

Tania Leichliter (: 36:09

in transition. You do that before it gets to the agreement place, when you're separated and you're in a transitional thing. You do trial and error. You do some transition planning, and you get people practicing what the reality could be in the agreement, and you see where you end up on that.

Michael Sallustio (: 36:26

If both parents are seemingly fit, right? There's no documented record of criminal behavior or gross neglect or abuse, then, and the other parent is denying them any access to the child, and they've got a court hearing coming up in a few months. That's part of the reality testing I'll say to the parent who's withholding.

What are you? How are you gonna explain to the judge you've been denying access to your child? What's gonna be your reason for that? Because you don't have any of these things that would give a judge reason to deny access. Now, listen, some cases, there's just a bad parent. They do have a criminal record or they do have a history of protective orders or whatever. And then that's a different matter. And in some of those cases, I'll just say, look,

if they won't agree because the bad parent is not agreeing to any terms, he's being unreasonable, or she's being unreasonable, then in some cases, I'll just say, you know what, you're just gonna have to go to court. You need a judge to tell you what we're doing is not gonna work.

Tania Leichliter (: 37:17

Mm-hmm.

So I end with my three top tips of things that I got out of today's session, but I do want to give you an opportunity. to tell our audience how they can find you. And then I'll wrap.

it up with my three top tips of things I pulled out of today.

Michael Sallustio (: 37:32

Yeah, so I have a website called Arundel Mediation. It's where Arundel and Rwanda County is where I am in Maryland, but I do mediate cases in other states because in most states that's just fine. arundelmediation.com is my website. You can find me there as well. But no, no books at the moment.

My email address, michael.arundelmediation.com.

Tania Leichliter (: 37:54

all of your information in our show notes. So, if people do want to connect with you, mediation can happen across state lines. And I just want people to know that if you are looking for a legal agreement to be created, if you were working with a mediator who is not licensed in your state, they can put together a memorandum of understanding. And then you take that memorandum and you bring that to a lawyer and they can put the agreement together. But the mediation process.

can always happen over Zoom and around over county lines or state lines. Lots of mediators, amazing mediators are working all over the country, working with people to get them to the right agreement and the right ending. I can't say enough about Michael's work and all the mediators who are working towards this alternative dispute resolution because we're all out there trying to change the divorce dialogue.

to make it so, individuals who are getting divorced, it doesn't have to be such a tumultuous experience, that it doesn't have to create long lasting trauma for your children. You can decide that this is the direction you wanna go, and you wanna try to come to an agreement and save yourself money

So the three things I really pulled out of today is, one, this idea around a reality check. And I love Michael's work around that, doing reality checks before you step into that hearing. Whether it's an uncontested hearing or a contested hearing, hopefully you're not moving into a contested environment.

but doing a reality check to figure out very specifically, like, what is the intent? Why are you having this argument? You know, what is the outcome that you're looking for? And being able to be really clear about that. The other thing Michael, and I really agreed upon is that you cannot change other people. You can't change their behaviors. You can only manage your own reactions to them. And that is so important.

And the third thing is really about the child. The child needs to be at the forefront of all negotiations. That's the first thing Michael does when you walk into the room, he wants to get to know your kids because those kids, the way that they are in their daily lives, really affects the way that custody is gonna work for them. You cannot disparage your other spouse because the kids are not the messengers. The kids know that they are 50 % mom and 50 % dad. And if you begin to talk,

badly about that other spouse, then that child, consciously or unconsciously, is going to think that they're bad. So if you do have things that you need to be communicating, you communicate them as adults. And if a kid makes a comment, you say thank you for the information, mom and I.

don't have the conversations with your children. So again, all of Michael's information will be in the show notes. I'm so appreciative of your time today, Michael, and I hope that we can work together and get more people to be better than bitter.

Michael Sallustio (: 40:47

Absolutely. Thanks for the opportunity, and thanks for the work you're doing. Appreciate it.

Tania Leichliter (: 42:42

Thanks for tuning in to Better Than Bitter, navigating an amicable divorce. Whether you are at the beginning of your divorce journey, midway through, or even done, we want the stories from our guests to give you hope that an amicable resolution is possible. If you'd like to dive deeper into today's episode, check out our show notes for a full transcript, reflections, and links to learn more about Better Than Bitter's coaching courses.

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