Introduction (: 00:06

Welcome to the Better Than Bitter Divorce Podcast, where we flip the script on divorce and show you how to have a more amicable divorce resolution. I'm your host, Tania Leichliter a divorce coach, a certified life coach, and the mastermind behind the Better Than Bitter five-step game plan course, where I help individuals build a pathway towards a more amicable divorce resolution.

Each week, I'll bring you uplifting stories from people who've successfully experienced amicable separations, proving that divorce doesn't have to be a battleground. Whether you're overwhelmed with grief, struggling with custody and co-parenting, or just dealing with a high-conflict individual, this podcast is here to guide you towards reclaiming your life and being what I know is possible, better than bitter.

Tania Leichliter (: 01:16

Welcome to the Better Than Bitter Podcast, episode number 33, Do I Stay or Do I Go? The Divorce Dilemma. Today, I'm so excited to have Carrie Mead here. She is a mental health therapist in the states of Maryland, South Carolina. Carrie works with families going through this divorce process. It's just such a long and confusing, and exhausting process.

And for most, it is just completely overwhelming. And Carrie has spent the last four years running these psychotherapy groups for women who are contemplating divorce, as well as for women who are in divorce recovery. So we have all these different stages of our divorce process, and one is really deciding, do I stay or do I go? So we're gonna answer some of those questions today. These divorce contemplation groups,

have allowed for so many women to come together to discern if this is what's best for them. Do they stay in their marriage? Or should they just end it? It's always that question, and it's such a hard one because it's life-changing to end something that you just didn't believe was ever gonna end.

So this process of discernment is so unique to each and every person. And based on their life experiences, their personal circumstances, Carrie helps these individuals find this path that honors their own understanding of themselves and their relationship. So I'm so excited to have Carrie on the show today. Welcome Carrie.

Carrie Mead, LCPC (: 02:41

Thank you, Tania. I'm so glad to be here and talk about this really important topic.

Tania Leichliter (: 02:45

It is so important. And I was just on a call last week, and I had a client join my support group. And in diving deep into her thoughts about this individual, it could never change, my life is never gonna be any different than it is today. And going into this idea around divorce without really discerning the marriage. And I was able to get her considering discernment because she came back after some of the coaching was like, well, my husband's kind of stepping up to the plate, and he's really wanting to work.

And I said, you know what, like, let's get you into discernment. So Carrie, I know there are so many people out there who have no idea what discernment is, and they don't even consider it as an option. So if you could tell people the difference between discernment and couples therapy, that would be so helpful.

Carrie Mead, LCPC (: 03:44

Yeah, so discernment counseling is just this idea that there comes into an assumption that you may not have the same goal as your partner. And I think this is one of the challenges of a traditional couples counseling session, which is, at least traditionally, we sort of would think they're here in couples counseling. They must both want to be married. They must both want to work on this relationship. They sort of...

must have this goal of staying together. And we're doing discernment with a couple, can really help them, or just label out loud, like you may want to be in this marriage, and your partner may not want to. Or you both might know that it's not the right place, but neither one of you wants to leave, right? Or the further, the more you ask for in space and time to get that clarity, your partner is suffocating you.

and pushing you further away because they're scared, they're anxious. So, discernment counseling allows us just to name that, like you may be in two different places, and often are, to be honest.

Tania Leichliter (: 04:44

And isn't it also kind of thinking about the nuts and bolts of the marriage? Like, is there enough here to then move into counseling to work?

Carrie Mead, LCPC (: 04:54

Yes, I think that's a really nice way of describing it because, like the best definition I've ever found of just the word discernment, it's like the ability to judge well. So, looking at your marriage, you know, objectively and with the help of a professional, is there enough to work with here? Is there some really, you know, unhealthy behaviors that cannot be tolerated and you may never be able to recover from, right? So we really have to be able to judge well our situation.

And there are certainly people who are in marriages that are extremely toxic and not just to them, but to their children, to the people around them, know, collaterally, if it's neighbors who are living next to people who are fighting all the time, if it's a work colleague who's picking up your work because you're constantly missing work, because you're always in fights. mean, this is not just, it is you and your spouse, and it's also all the other people. And of course, children being the priority, that are collateral, and no matter the age of the kids, they are, you know.

In it.

Tania Leichliter (: 05:49

You know, and I think that I have older children, and when we separated, I think my daughter was 17, my son was 15. And although I didn't have a tumultuous marriage, there was tension in the house. There wasn't a lot of yelling, and there wasn't a lot of arguing. It just was tense. And it was confusing, I think, for the kids, because they didn't know any differently. And so...

Again, I didn't have a horrible marriage. It just was, like you said, do you want the same things in life? Are you looking at life through the same lens? And the differences in values are those able to be worked on in a productive, loving way, where you can then become your authentic self? I had somebody in my support group yesterday who was talking about.

her inauthenticity, like her inability in that relationship to show her children who she really was. And that it was, although scary and overwhelming to move into divorce, that unbelievable feeling of my gosh, I get to be me moving forward, and I get to share that with my children.

Carrie Mead, LCPC (: 06:45

Yes.

Yeah, I actually think that's a place where a lot of my clients find themselves, like sort of reckoning with themselves. Is this who I want to be? Is this the version of me in this marriage? Is this my authentic self? And is it where I want to be? Is it who I want to be? And can I truly be the best version of myself in this relationship? And of course, you know, we hope that our relationships lift us up.

and bring out the best in us. And some don't have that ability. know, some don't, can't.

Tania Leichliter (: 07:30

And I love that ability to say, yes, I just can't. I'm really struggling to be me here. And being able to learn that through discernment, being able to understand who these two individuals are that are in this marriage that is obviously having some breakdowns, and being able to, through discernment, to say you're too far apart. It's just like...

I don't believe that coming together here is going to be the best solution. think the best thing is for you all to be a part. I read this amazing book, and I had this woman, Gabrielle Hartley, on my show. She wrote a book called Better Apart. She's a mediator. So she, of course, works with people to have a more amicable.

Carrie Mead, LCPC (: 08:09

Hmm

Tania Leichliter (: 08:14

resolution, but it's about it's okay to be a part. It's okay to get to that place of acceptance. It's like, this is what's going to be best for everybody. ⁓

Carrie Mead, LCPC (: 08:23

Yeah.

Can I add something to that, too? I hear this a lot in my groups and with my individual clients. I don't want to be a failure. don't want my marriage to be a failure. And it's really reframing that, getting into the language around that, because sure, you can look at it as marriage is successful and divorce is a failure, but I think that's a really...

inaccurate and not helpful way to think about it because it can be that you can successfully disentangle and co-parent really well. You can successfully become each of you yourself and your partner the best versions of yourself, and it also is to me, it's sort of, it's the right word, like to say that maybe you were married for 20 years and now it's a failure because you're getting divorced, it's not a fair interpretation or way to think, like it's not a good lens to look through. You might've had some very successful times, very, very important times as a couple. And still it may be ending.

Tania Leichliter (: 09:17

I think that if anybody has produced children out of a marriage, then there was purpose and love, and connection to do something so beautiful, bringing kids into the world. A lot of my platform at Better Than Bitter is about not feeling like a failure, and that it's an opportunity for personal growth and self-discovery. And that is the blessing that can come from divorce, depending on when you're getting divorced, I always say hashtag back nine, because we have a lot of life left. Even if it's a gray divorce, we all have a lot of life left to live. And this idea that just because your marriage didn't work, it's absolutely not a failure, because like you said, have gratitude for the good, have gratitude for what came out of that marriage.

Have gratitude for the growth that you might have had for yourself. I do exercises in some of my courses about you take what you loved about yourself from pre-marriage, and then you take what you love about yourself from what happened during marriage. And then you merge those two selves, and you redefine your self-commitment statement. You recreate like,

Who am I? Who is authentically who I want to be moving my life forward? And you write that down, you know, all the good stuff. And then you put it on your mirror and you read it every day. Like, this is the person, this is who I am. And getting that empowerment feeling out there. And if you're in discernment, if you're trying to figure out, do I stay or do I go? Asking yourself those questions. Can I be my authentic self in this relationship?

Can the best version of me shine here? And a lot of times you end up with the, know, no, I don't think so. We're just too far apart. And to me, a lot of it has to do with that inner narrative. What is your inner narrative, and are the inner narratives complementary to each other? Can they work together?

Carrie Mead, LCPC (: 11:02

Yeah.

Yes.

Tania Leichliter (: 11:17

Or are

Are they just competing with each other in this very combative way?

Carrie Mead, LCPC (: 11:22

Yeah.

I also add that in the process of discernment, I ask people to open their eyes to what is rather than what they think it could be or what they hope it might be or what it used to be, right? Like to really discern is the ability to judge well. So with the facts and the reality of your situation, you really have to be objective about where this is, what the life that you're living

and the person that you're with and the life that you've created together. Because a lot of my clients will come to me and say, none of this is acceptable. And you know, it's really sometimes really terrible stuff that's happening behind closed doors, but I know that they can change. I believe in them. We used to be more loving towards each other, but I mean, that was 20 years ago. We were, you know, we were young. We were teenagers then. Okay, but to discern, we really have to take what's in front of us. What's the pattern? What's...

What is there, not what you wish was there, not what you think there could be through counseling or coaching or, you know, a spiritual retreat, but like what is actually here. And that's hard for people to do.

Tania Leichliter (: 12:25

So,

Yeah, so take me through a little bit about some of the questions that you might ask in a first discernment session. And do people come together in discernment? Are you working with individuals together? Do you first go one-on-one? Explain, I think, again, people really don't understand what discernment is.

They don't even think about it in the divorce process in terms of the people that you should, the support team that you should be gathering. So let's give some nuts and bolts here.

Carrie Mead, LCPC (: 12:56

Yeah, so there are a couple of different ways. I see people individually for the most part, and then I run support groups. So I don't often work with a couple through a discernment, but there are discernment counselors who are trained and qualified to do discernment counseling. So they would work with a couple together to describe, and I believe it's three sessions I agreed to, to figure out if they're going to do couples counseling or if they're going to get divorced or stay where they are. Those are sort of like the three paths forward.

But for me, when I'm running a support group, some of the things that I like to ask immediately are like, Tell me about some of the challenges in your relationship. And I get really specific, is there emotional abuse? Is there physical abuse? Are there affairs? Are there legal problems? Are there people spending money? Let's just get the big concrete things out of, spending money that you don't know about. Let's get the big concrete things out of the way.

Then let's talk about how long you've been in this state, right? Like, so you've joined a group or you've come to counseling to talk about your marriage. Is this just like a new idea you're just floating over, or, you know, how long has it been there? Overwhelmingly, people tell me that by the time they come to me, it can easily be 10 years. I mean, that is not surprising at all. And they might've only been married 10 years, or they might've been married 20 years. But people spend a lot of time, I think, even contemplating and discerning.

Even though they don't know what they're doing, you know, it's just kind of floating in the back of their head. So I like to ask them, like, did anything in particular happen to get you here today? Or is this just sort of like a building feeling over the last couple of years or decade? I also like to know about their family of origin. I like to know that they come from a family of divorce, that they come from a family where everybody stays married, regardless. You know, so I think that's always an interesting conversation.

All of this to help them just sort of start that self-discovery and thinking about what they're thinking about. Yeah, yeah.

Tania Leichliter (: 14:43

So it's interesting that you say the family of origin, because I know that my ex-husband came from a divorce. My parents were divorced. My dad's been divorced a few times. Believe it or not, all of my family has been amicably divorced. There has been no bad blood. I feel like I had really good modeling in terms of if you're going to get divorced, this is how you do it. But

Carrie Mead, LCPC (: 15:04

Mm-hmm.

Tania Leichliter (: 15:05

I believe that children of divorce, especially if they're double divorces, like parents, both come divorced, the immediate trigger for them is like, I'm doomed. I mean, I'm destined to get divorced. So, have you worked with individuals in your groups who are fearful of that?

Meaning like, that is something that creates fear for them in terms of moving forward with their own divorce because they're scared that their children are going to believe that they're doomed and that there's no way that they're going to be able to have a relationship and a marriage that doesn't end in divorce.

Carrie Mead, LCPC (: 15:38

Well, it's interesting. I actually get something a little bit different a lot of times from people. Like, so here are two scenarios I get more often than being afraid of that. I get either, I thought I was going to be the one to break the cycle. I thought I had made a wise choice. Because I came from a divorced family, I approached this differently, and I really thought I had figured it out. So there's like a sense of...

Tania Leichliter (: 15:50

Mm-hmm.

Carrie Mead, LCPC (: 16:03

I guess sadness, also like self, or sort of like self-defeat. Like, I'm repeating this pattern. Or what I actually get a lot more commonly is people coming from married, families that are traditionally, everyone marries and stays married and you just suck it up. I know he was abusive. I know he drank a little bit. I know he gambled on the side, but it doesn't, we stay married, and they might be the first person to consider it.

Tania Leichliter (: 16:24

And

Is that like a religious thing sometimes?

Carrie Mead, LCPC (: 16:30

Sometimes, sometimes it's religious. Sometimes it's just the family story. We stick together. We put up with things. You make sacrifices. Mothers make sacrifices for their children. Sometimes it is deeply religious. Obviously, that's a little bit more of a smaller subset of people, but sometimes it's just the family story.

Tania Leichliter (: 16:51

So it's very interesting to me that there are both sides of the fence there because I heard a statistic, and I'm wondering if you've heard the same. 50 % of marriages end in divorce, and of the 50 % of people who stay married, only 20 % of people are honestly happy.

Carrie Mead, LCPC (: 17:09

I've heard something similar. heard a statistic recently that in any given year, up to 25 % of people are considering divorce, and their spouse has no idea, has no idea. Like, seriously considering, not just like, you know, after a fight or something, being in a bad mood, like seriously considering it and their spouse doesn't know. So something similar. Yeah.

Tania Leichliter (: 17:28

Yeah, and so and then the other stat I heard is that most people who end up filing for divorce or moving forward with their divorce have been contemplating for four years.

Carrie Mead, LCPC (: 17:38

I haven't heard that, but that makes sense to me.

Tania Leichliter (: 17:40

Yeah, thinking about leaving for about four years. And that's running pretty standard in the individuals that I have in my groups or who I'm coaching. Ask that question. So, how long did you sit on this? How long? And, you know, I also do coach a lot of people who did not ask for the divorce and that who were asked for the divorce. But then I do ask the question, you know, were you honestly happy?

In your marriage? And most of the answers were, well, no. But they stay in their marriage mostly because of debilitating fear, financial fear, fear of loneliness, fear being the factor, or fear being the emotion that held them in something that they were not happy in, because the alternative in their mind was worse than where they were in the moment.

Carrie Mead, LCPC (: 18:17

Yes.

Tania Leichliter (: 18:32

So we try to move through that. That's like a lot of the work that we do at Better Than Better is building people up to have more courage and to have more hope and to know that there is a brighter future, but they have to believe that there is. And if they don't believe, if they have the I can't and I won't attitude, then they won't have a better life.

But if they step into the arena and say, all right, I can and I will, and I can get clarity of what that future life looks like. And I'm gonna stay really focused on that life that I want, the self that I want, the authentic me that I want to nurture. And I know that through discernment, so much of that can come out. So many people are so repressed in their marriages that they aren't living anymore.

Carrie Mead, LCPC (: 19:21

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And we get used to it, right? Like we just get used to our status quo. It's better the devil you know than the one you don't, as they say. And I think people also lose touch with like what a healthy relationship can look like and feel like. A lot of times, people get stuck in this thought process of like, well, it's not abusive. We're, you know, we're not having like great sex or anything like that, but it's fine. It's okay. Yeah, it's, I'm okay.

Tania Leichliter (: 19:46

Yeah, totally. I'm okay with it. Like it's not horrible. And, you know, again, it has to do with tolerance. Like what's important to you? I mean, I know that, you know, so many, I'm going to be 55 and I, you know, have friends who are like, have no interest in sex, zero. So that's not important to them anymore, but what their spouse says it's highly important. You know, so in that discernment,

Carrie Mead, LCPC (: 19:51

Yeah.

when

Yes.

Tania Leichliter (: 20:13

You know, like if they can't come to a place there, that's an issue, right? That's going to be an issue. There's going to be a massive disconnect. And I'm assuming in discernment, like if one says absolutely not, and the other one is like, well, I can't live without it. Like, there have to be some changes there. I mean, what do ? Right.

Carrie Mead, LCPC (: 20:19

Yeah.

Yeah. And

there's a lot of things that can be done, but it sort of highlights how much flexibility we have to have in marriage and in a healthy marriage, right? Like how we do have to be flexible, which may mean having sex when you're not 100 % in the mood, and also may mean having sex once a week instead of every day, right? Like flexibility on both sides and caring about what your partner wants, what's important to your partner.

In the sex scenario, it's important to my partner that they have physical touch and they have intimacy, and that we have sexual intercourse because that makes them feel alive, connected, special.

And also important to my partner, who may be really overwhelmed by work or nursing children or changing diapers, and doesn't feel their best. And despite what I say to them, I can honor that my spouse may not want to be naked right now. Or has that changed in some way for us in this season? So it's like respecting and caring about what's important to your partner and how they're feeling.

Tania Leichliter (: 21:27

totally agree with that. mean, obviously, you know, any marriage that has gone through raising children, that puts a lot of stress on the connection that you have with each other, because, like that, you both become at the bottom of the totem pole, right? You know, you have these, you're all together, and you're super focused on each other, and then you have kids, and then the kids go to the top, right?

And then, there's always one spouse and then the other, right? They're always at the bottom, for the most part, when you're raising children. And you're right, getting on the same page in terms of what each other's needs are and how those needs are being heard and articulated, and having some level of compassion for where each other is. So meeting each other, in that place, right? Where

Carrie Mead, LCPC (: 22:06

Yeah.

Good to see you.

Tania Leichliter (: 22:16

You're like, yeah, like I would love to have connection and intimacy, but I don't want to have it in the bedroom across the hall from my children after a long day of work. I'm happy to do that, but can we go away to do that, away from the kids, where my head is not spinning with the thousand things that I need to get done in my day?

Because I do enjoy it. I just don't enjoy it when it becomes an obligation around it, and it needs to be special, right? So, but you have to come through that point and discernment to say, like, well, can we create that environment or not? Like where both of our needs are being met or not.

Carrie Mead, LCPC (: 22:46

Yeah.

Yeah. And even to dial it back further, you have to be able to talk to your partner and bring up hard conversations. You have to be able to listen when they give you feedback that you don't want to hear. You have to hold space for them and not get defensive. Kind of key under this is like, can I talk, you know, can my partner and I have hard conversations? Not only do we enjoy them and not do we, but we also even good at them, but can we even have them? Can we approach hard things with each other?

Do we have that? Because that's, again, if that's lacking, it's gonna be really hard to have an authentic relationship.

Tania Leichliter (: 23:25

It's also the way that those hard conversations get interpreted, meaning that, you know, some people get into hard conversations and then they ruminate over that conversation and it sticks with them for a long time, right? And then there's others that have the hard conversation, and they're like, whew, that felt so good to get that off my chest. Okay, I'm good. Let's just move on, you know? And like, the other person's still like,

Carrie Mead, LCPC (: 23:48

Yes.

Tania Leichliter (: 23:50

really riled up about it and like maybe still processing it and the runway is longer for the processing and the one that's maybe able to listen and agree that things have to change or whatever it is, it almost seems callous to the individual that's a ruminator. So it also just has to do with how you process emotions, how you, and again, I'm assuming that comes up in discernment.

Carrie Mead, LCPC (: 24:05

Yeah.

Tania Leichliter (: 24:15

You know, are we so far apart here in the way that we work with, you know, the avoidance versus the anxious attachment styles and all of that, you know, together really makes for challenging relationships. And sometimes they work and sometimes they don't. And it's okay for them not to work. And that's why I'm just a firm believer in what you do in terms of the discernment.

process and not jump into therapy to work on something that may not work.

Carrie Mead, LCPC (: 24:44

Yeah, yeah. And I think in my role as well with it, and I don't know if this is just like because I'm in the world of therapy and trauma and things like that, but I'm often the first person that will say to somebody, again, I'm working often with people individually, like your relationship sounds abusive, not physically, but emotionally, psychologically. And that really startles people. But also as we start to unpack what abuse looks like in all these great areas.

We have to really, again, look at like what we're dealing with and understand that, like, even if your partner says, I want to be a better partner to you, do they have the capabilities to do that? Do they have the determination? Because when you go, when that person says, I find I'll go to therapy and work on my anger, that doesn't mean one or two sessions. Like, are they going to be able to stick it out? Are they going to be able to tolerate whatever it is that they're running from that brings in these healthy, unhealthy relationships, dynamics?

And can the person I'm working with, can they identify where maybe they're being, know, maybe they're going tit for tat and now they're emotionally abusive towards our partner, right? And so, yeah, it's challenging. It is, it's challenging.

Tania Leichliter (: 25:48

And there's some people who just don't like therapy. At the end of the day, it's not that they're bad people and they don't have capacity, it's like, my God, so and so doesn't like therapy. That's okay. Not everybody likes that method of working on themselves. It doesn't mean they don't work on themselves. It's just that the method of working is not their method. They'd prefer to read a book or listen to a podcast or do a workbook or...

Carrie Mead, LCPC (: 25:53

of tons of people.

Yes.

Mm-hmm. We're so fortunate, right?

Tania Leichliter (: 26:15

But they don't want to be in a position where one individual is sitting in front of them, and they're feeling like that one individual is trying to provide some guidance because it's one person's opinion on how to move through whatever they're doing. And I would say like, you know, somebody's experience with therapy might've been really bad because the therapist wasn't the right therapist for them, but it doesn't mean you like don't try somebody.

else, right? Because every approach is super different. I know, in coaching, I definitely define the two different, you know, methodologies as like, you know, therapy or psychotherapy, does go back into those repeating patterns, understanding where the things are coming from. Like you said, what's the origin of their family? Like, really trying to dive deep into, okay, well, what brought them to this point? Whereas

Coaching is more like, okay, this is where you are. Okay, let's get you moving forward. If you want to go work on your trauma and everything else, you need a therapist and a coach, Your coach is paving the path forward and getting you the skills so you can manage your mindset for you to be able to focus on self care and self compassion and really getting you thinking about your future, defining your future.

and having that path. But it doesn't replace individuals who really are struggling with trauma. And I go back to a lot of attachment theory issues, because a lot of that comes up in relationships. Like, what is your background? Like, where do you come from? I love doing those attachments. I don't do them with my clients, because that's not what I do. But I'm assuming you do a lot of those, you know,

quizzes and stuff where people can figure out, you know, wow, I'm like super anxious, and I've been married to an avoidant, and that's not working for me.

Carrie Mead, LCPC (: 28:06

Mm-hmm.

And it's

amazing too, when people say nothing's changed, but I see it differently now, or I'm noticing, no, he's always done that, or she's always done that. But now I'm seeing it. I've had some growth, some personal growth, some awareness. As you said, it doesn't have to be from therapy. can be from listening to podcasts or reading books, or talking to friends, or joining book clubs. mean, people, we have no lack of information out there, almost too much, right? So people can learn lots of ways, but...

A lot of times, it's not new behavior. It's behavior that's been tolerated or dismissed or you just didn't have time to worry about before, that is happening in the relationship that feels like suddenly bothersome to you because you're becoming more self-aware.

Tania Leichliter (: 28:54

Yeah. I, you know, through my life coaching training, like I didn't become a life coach to just become a life coach. I became a life coach after getting coached. Right. So I went through a process myself when I was like having like career changes. I ran a business for 14 years. I sold my business. So I was now working for a bigger company.

Carrie Mead, LCPC (: 29:03

Mm-hmm. Yes.

Tania Leichliter (: 29:15

I wasn't feeling fulfilled in my relationship, my romantic relationship with my husband. So I decided to get coached versus going to therapy because I was really looking for the next steps. And I had great tools in my toolbox. But then, when I was faced with divorce, I also added in that therapy portion of that because I wanted to understand myself. Like I wanted to understand my role.

Carrie Mead, LCPC (: 29:36

Yeah.

Tania Leichliter (: 29:41

I wanted to understand, and I really didn't want to repeat behavioral patterns. I mean, that's the reason why you do therapy, like to bring that forward and be like, okay, from the outside looking in, like, what are my behaviors that potentially contributed here? And I'm assuming through discernment, a lot of that comes out, you know, a lot of it comes out.

Carrie Mead, LCPC (: 29:45

Well, see ya.

Exactly.

Yes.

Tania Leichliter (: 30:02

I wish we had gone to discernment, but we didn't. And I wish I even knew about it. I didn't even know about it until a friend of mine went through it. And they ended up deciding to, like, the discernment therapist was like, I think you have enough here to work on this. Do you want to work? And then they decided to start and then they put pause because they just like, one of them wasn't quite ready to do the work. ⁓

Carrie Mead, LCPC (: 30:25

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Tania Leichliter (: 30:26

And now it's been a year, and now they're gonna move into therapy again. So, a lot of times, you just have to be ready for the therapy, because after discernment, it's hard work.

Carrie Mead, LCPC (: 30:34

Yeah.

It's so hard. It's so

hard. And we live in a really fast-paced, high-pressure world, you know, as it is. And this is one more thing, right? That feels really hard for people, like doing the work of therapy or coaching, like making the time for the appointments, the expense of it, taking time away from anything, you know, whether it's your laundry or your kids' sports games or your boss's requests to take care of yourself and to make this breathing space is challenging.

Tania Leichliter (: 31:04

So, if you were to kind of summarize for individuals who have never heard of discernment before, and they are contemplating divorce, can you just, in a couple of sentences kind of explain the process in terms of this is what you would do, this is where you would find it.

How about what resources are available to you, know getting in touch with a discernment? think if you want to get the initial Person who can work as a couple and then like I said, then you are working Do they go to the support group first individually and then once they decide individually as I feel like I can do this they recommend it just Giving them more summary because again, it is not something that's well known and I want to give as much information as possible

Carrie Mead, LCPC (: 31:45

Yeah.

Yeah, so if someone is looking for a couples counselor, they may look and sort of filter for a discernment counselor, someone who is qualified and trained and has that certification. I think it's a certification that someone can become a certified discernment counselor. And so as I had said, like discernment counseling, like those, I believe you agree to three sessions, and you.

try to figure out like, are we on the same page? Do we both want the same thing? What do we both see are the major problems within this relationship? And are we both willing to work on them? And sometimes you'll get someone who says, I'm done and I'm out. And the other partner says, I'm not. And that's what you're working through in those first couple of sessions. For me, as I run support groups for people contemplating divorce, I often see them individually or in a support group away from their partner.

And then I'm making a recommendation. I think you might be really good fit for discernment counseling. And again, like you, a lot of people are like, what's that? We've done couples counseling, and it got us nowhere. I've never heard of this. So I'm doing that explaining. But what I love about it is that it doesn't make the assumption that you both want to stay married, that there is enough here. So you mentioned to your friend that the discernment counselor said, I think there's enough here we can work with.

I think that's a really beautiful thing because traditionally in therapy, we don't put our judgments on people. We don't tell you, you should stay married, or that your relationship is really good, and yours is really bad. you know, like we try to be a lot more neutral, but I think there's a lot of expectation and this is part of like why people seek discernment because there's some more direct communication about like what is going on and getting that buy-in from both of you to come up with that common goal.

And yeah.

Tania Leichliter (: 33:28

And then do discernment therapists or discernment individuals that are licensed discernment individuals, do all of them do couples therapy or do they sometimes refer back out again?

Carrie Mead, LCPC (: 33:41

Yeah, it's just, it's their discernment counselors. And so yeah, so they're, they're, they're like a, they are a couples counselor, but they go through this particular lens, which is discernment. Whereas you might've heard of the Gottman theory, or you might've heard of EFT or Amago, there are a lot of different ways to do couples counseling. So they're couples counselors, and then their framework is just, is working through discernment. Yeah.

Tania Leichliter (: 34:04

Okay. So, if somebody finds a discernment therapist who does that three-session work, if they enjoy that individual, they can stay on and do the couples therapy with that individual. And then moving towards that, you're saying like, hey, if you're just contemplating and you haven't gotten buy-in from your significant other, you can work...

Carrie Mead, LCPC (: 34:12

Yes. Yes. Yes, look at me. That's correct. Yep.

Yeah.

Tania Leichliter (: 34:29

With a discernment support group to be like, hey, I'm still in this contemplation phase. Let's do some self-discovery. Let's do some work on myself before I ask my current spouse to be part of this. Because again, that gives you the ability to say I'm in or out without even seeing if the in is possible.

Carrie Mead, LCPC (: 34:35

Yes.

Yes.

Yes, and I think that that's a really good point because a lot of times people will tell me they've gone to couples counseling as a last-ditch effort. I want to be able to just check it off the box to say we tried couples. And that's great, but there's no buy-in there. There's no self-reflection there. There's no, if you're just doing it to check a box, you're probably not going to get a whole lot out of it, right? And so for my people, coming through like a support group,

that they're balled into like, need to understand myself. I need to understand how I got here, what's going on, what's possible. And now, if I'm going to couples counseling with a discernment counselor or anybody else, I understand like what my motivations are and what work I'm willing to do.

Tania Leichliter (: 35:29

Yeah. So this has been super enlightening, Carrie. I'm so glad that you came on the Better Than Bitter podcast. And I always end with a couple of things. So the first thing I'm going to ask is, I have a blog article. It's called the 20-year marriage contract with the option to renew. And I don't ask all of my guests about it, but you in particular would be a really great guest for me to ask your opinion.

On the way that we have structured marriage in this country, till death do us part, the first thing you said to me was, so many people come to you and were like, I feel like I failed. Because we have this vow that says till death do us part. And if you don't reach that till death do us part, you have ultimately failed. And so if we restructure our marriage,

and the way that we look at it to say like, okay, whether it's a 15 year marriage contract or a 20 year marriage contract, but you go into a contract with the intent of spending a good chunk of your lives with one another, but realizing that especially during those marriage years, like we're evolving and changing at a very high rate. And that as you move into that 15-year or 20-year mark, things...

can change and evolve, and how amazing would it be to change the divorce dialogue to say, like, okay, I have an out and I don't have to spend tens to a hundred thousand dollars on leaving this marriage. My kids knew that we were in this contractual arrangement and that, you know, we're gonna either decide that we're gonna be together as lovers and romantic and partners

Or just gonna evolve our relationship, especially if you have kids, but without the drama. Because if you have a contract, you know specifically how things are gonna end. especially if one person is staying home and the other person is working, like there's so much dynamic there that really can set people off on the wrong track in divorce. But what if we thought about it when we're still loving each other? What if we thought about these things when we were in love?

Carrie Mead, LCPC (: 37:41

Yeah.

Tania Leichliter (: 37:42

and getting them on paper when we are in a good mindset. So what are your thoughts? So what are your thoughts?

Carrie Mead, LCPC (: 37:47

I think it's really an interesting way to think about things, right? Because it would take away this idea of taking for granted. Like, well, you signed the marriage certificate, you said till death do us part, home and free, we got the rings on our finger, right? Like it makes you potentially actively engage in keeping the relationship spontaneous and interesting and loving, and safe. This idea that this isn't...

There's no guarantee of what happens after 20 years. And of course, 20 years is a really interesting point, especially for people with children, because that's the time when hopefully children are launching into the world. You're going as a couple, potentially to have more time to yourselves, to rekindle whatever you lost while you were tending to children, right? So that 20-year period is a period where a lot of couples, even healthy couples, happy couples, find themselves in limbo.

of this new world, this empty nest syndrome. What do we do with our time that we always wanted when they were in diapers, and now we have it, and we barely know each other, or we barely know ourselves. So I think it's that 20-year mark is a really interesting way. I do think it, whether people go into this 20-year contract, as you say, or not, I think that's what we're seeing is people are getting through with the parenting, they're launching their children, and then they're going, I, they're.

I don't know that this is what I want anymore. I'm so far gone. Yeah.

Tania Leichliter (: 39:05

Totally. Yeah.

Yeah. And then it just becomes super hard to separate. Instead of just being like, awesome, we did our jobs here. Let's love our children together. Let's still continue to co-parent our adult children. Let's still celebrate everything that happened in our lives together. ⁓

Carrie Mead, LCPC (: 39:24

Yeah.

Tania Leichliter (: 39:25

And focus on the good, and let's just move on with our lives and not have to spend $100,000 to get a lawyer to draft up an agreement and create drama where the drama doesn't need to be. You know, it just...

Carrie Mead, LCPC (: 39:34

Yeah.

I think this speaks to this idea, though, that we don't want to wait till 20 years to be like, hey, how are we doing? Right? Right? So like.

Right? So like this idea of like, need to be checking in. We need to be having these conversations. We need to be anticipating that through different things, whether it's the birth of a child or the loss of a job or something like a COVID pandemic, you know, that we're going to naturally have some, some highs and lows and we need to be checking in with each other and tracking, you know.

You know, I think you had used the words like, it's such a time of growth, know, we're learning parenting, we're in 20 years, you might be 45, you might be at the peak of like your career. So there's a lot of change happening there. And if you're not checking in with your partner and tracking with them, you could be, you know, really going in different directions too.

Tania Leichliter (: 40:22

And I think there could be like a whole industry around it, to be honest, to think about it. It's like you work with someone at the beginning of the marriage to come up with this contract. And then you have to are required every two, three years to go back. It's almost like redoing your estate plan. You know, you go back to that individual, you do check-ins, how are we doing? And I think about the renewal process. Think of it like a professional sports team, like an athlete. So when an athlete wants to renew a contract, right?

Carrie Mead, LCPC (: 40:38

Yeah.

Tania Leichliter (: 40:50

They're working their butts off on that field. They want to make sure that they get renewed. They want to resign. And if we're doing these check-ins and we're making sure we want to be resigned, we're working really hard. We're keeping that relationship alive. We're making time for the relationship. We're listening to each other better because you're thinking to yourself, I really don't want this to end.

Carrie Mead, LCPC (: 41:03

Yeah.

Tania Leichliter (: 41:15

Or maybe you do, you know, because maybe you really got, you know, maybe feel like, I missed the mark here. There's like, from a discernment perspective, yeah, we really don't align, and that's okay. I'm good with after the contract expires, just saying, like, okay. But I think that those that really do feel like there was a good basis of something to work with, that they continue to learn from the individual that you're doing the check-ins with, okay, like how are you moving this forward? You both seem like you're aligned.

Are you supporting each other? How are you feeling? And have some facilitation around it before it gets bad. We always end up in counseling when things are at their worst, right? Versus.

Carrie Mead, LCPC (: 41:49

Right.

Right. And we know this is counseling, right? Like people, we see them on their worst day, and they call Do you have an appointment next week? And it's like, no, it's like going to be three weeks, and they're desperate because they've been scared to call or they've had to convince their partner to do this with them. And yeah, and it's sometimes, you know, we often say like, I you'd called me a year ago or two years ago. Yeah.

Tania Leichliter (: 42:15

So at the end of every one of my podcasts, I always like to do three top tips. one, is that if you are contemplating divorce, if you are in this place of I'm not quite sure, hire a discernment therapist. Like, hire somebody to do those three days with you.

And that's just a really important piece of this to really make you feel like you are thinking properly Is there something here to work with or is there not? Three sessions, you know, to really get that deeper understanding if there's something there. The other piece of that is that as an individual, you need to make sure that you're getting the support that you need through this contemplation phase.

meaning get involved in a support group, whether it is a general divorce support group, like we have a support group membership at Better Than Bitter, or something more specific to discernment in that contemplation phase, because individuals just need support, because it's a really big decision. Being around people who are also thinking about that and making those bigger decisions is really important. And the third thing is

It's okay to decide that your marriage isn't going to move forward. It is not an indication of failure. You could have made it 10 years, 20 years. It's just the fact that you are evolving as individuals and that till death do us part, you know, is only setting us up to feel like failure, but it's not. It is an amazing time for self-discovery.

For bringing forward the authentic you, and for a child, being able to see their parents authentically be able to live out the best version of themselves is only gonna make them appreciate and love you more. So you're not disappointing them because if you believe that this has to be a disappointment for your children,

That's just the story they're telling themselves. That is just your truth, not the truth. The truth is whatever you want the truth to be, meaning that if you believe showing up as your best self, your authentic self, is gonna be the best thing that your kids have ever seen because they're all of a sudden gonna get to know you for who you really are, like that's the dialogue you wanna have. So I would say that those are my three top tips for like,

How we started talking about the idea around failure discernment, getting the right support systems in place. These are all support systems that are needed in this divorce process. And if you invest in these systems, your divorce, if you end up there, is going to be less expensive. Trust me. Yeah.

Carrie Mead, LCPC (: 44:41

Yeah.

Yes, yeah, for sure. Yes,

for sure. For sure. Less expensive and less daunting as well.

Tania Leichliter (: 45:03

Correct, and a lot less long-lasting emotional trauma. Not only the long-lasting trauma for yourself, but also for your children. And that anything that you can do to make sure that, emotionally, you are ready for whatever step you're going to take.

Moving through your emotional divorce before you step foot into that legal divorce. Because the legal divorce is just a business negotiation. And if you are in the right mindset to have the hardest business negotiation or contract negotiation you've ever had, then you will come out spending a whole lot less money.

So Carrie, again, like thank you so, so much. This has been such a treat to have you on the show. All of Carrie's information will be in the show notes. She is a licensed health professional in both Maryland and South Carolina. So you can find Carrie at Marylandtherapycarry.com.

And like I said, that will be in the show notes. So you'll be able to connect with Carrie that way. Thanks to all of our listeners who tuned in today to the Better Than Bitter podcast. And we look forward to hearing from you in the next episode. Thank you.

Carrie Mead, LCPC (: 46:08

Thank you.

Tania Leichliter (: 46:08

Thanks for tuning in to Better Than Bitter, navigating an amicable divorce. Whether you are at the beginning of your divorce journey, midway through, or even done, we want the stories from our guests to give you hope that an amicable resolution is possible. If you'd like to dive deeper into today's episode, check out our show notes for a full transcript, reflections, and links to learn more about Better Than Bitter's coaching courses.

and how to connect with our fabulous guests. If you're ready for more support, you can head over to betterthanbitter. coach. Daily, you'll find details and additional information on our five-step game plan multimedia course, our one-to-one Zoom coaching, group coaching, monthly memberships, events and retreats, and a whole lot more. Plus, we've got a ton of free resources, like our monthly newsletter,

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At Better Than Bitter, we measure success by what we give and not by what we get. So let's change the divorce dialogue together. It's time to be better than bitter.