Introduction (: 00:06

Welcome to the Better Than Bitter Divorce Podcast, where we flip the script on divorce and show you how to have a more amicable divorce resolution. I'm your host, Tania Leichliter a divorce coach, a certified life coach, and the mastermind behind the Better Than Bitter five-step game plan course, where I help individuals build a pathway towards a more amicable divorce resolution.

Each week, I'll bring you uplifting stories from people who've successfully experienced amicable separations, proving that divorce doesn't have to be a battleground. Whether you're overwhelmed with grief, struggling with custody and co-parenting, or just dealing with a high-conflict individual, this podcast is here to guide you towards reclaiming your life and being what I know is possible, better than bitter.

Tania Leichliter (: 01:44

Welcome to episode number 34 of the Better Than Bitter podcast.

Tania Leichliter (: 01:49

Today we have Tom Shepherd. Tom is a frequent guest on my podcast because I really believe in what Tom is doing and his initiatives around his book, which is called Money Isn't Everything, Everything Is Money. And he has a currency camp that I just highly recommend to anybody who's going through divorce or even if you're just getting married.

and wanna prevent divorce in your life, I do believe that what Tom is doing here is getting people ready for some ownership and understanding of their own financial natures and how that does affect not only romantic relationships, but the relationship you have with yourself, the relationship you have with your kids.

And how you can move relationships forward in a healthier manner moving forward. So again, if you're getting divorced, we wanna make sure that as we move into a new relationship, that we're not bringing the same baggage or that we're not coming to the table with a lack of understanding of our own financial nature so we don't get ourselves into that same trap. Today we're gonna be talking about financial healing.

During divorce and beyond. welcome Tom.

So glad that you're back. And today we're going to talk about the healing because I know that whether you're contemplating divorce, or if you are at the final stages of your divorce, or maybe you're 10 years out from your divorce, there is a significant amount of thought around finances. And financial fear is the thing that comes up most in my coaching. And whether you are a double-income

A couple getting divorced, or maybe you're the primary breadwinner and you recognize the fact that you're going to have to pay alimony and child support, which is going to give you less. Or maybe you're somebody who's been out of the workforce for many years and have a financial fear about, what it's going to be like for you to have to earn money yourself and be able to find a way to support yourself in the manner by which you've been living in the past. So there's so much financial fear that comes on. so

I wanted to bring Tom on because He works with people throughout their lives, and divorce just happens to be a life transition that he's very familiar with himself because he's been through a divorce. He works really closely with his clients, no matter what is coming their way. So again, Tom, welcome.

Tom Shepard (: 04:04

It's good to be back, and I'm glad we're gonna dig in and talk about this notion of healing today. I'm looking forward to our discussion for sure.

When we talk about fear, it's often not fear of one person, it's often fear for both people. What happens when you get divorced is you've got two people going through something that both can be afraid of.

And so that's sort of the first thing that if I'm involved in helping a couple, and sometimes it's literally a couple where both of them are my clients, but help both of them recognize that fear is in play because change is coming, and we all fear.

or resist changes that are happening in our lives. Acceptance of change is sort of the first thing that we try and put out there that things are going to be different.

And when we're working with a couple and we're representing both of them in having some kind of either initial discussion or trying to help them frame the work around how to separate so that they can each come to the

conversation.

In a way that is representative of still caring for each other. That's a big part. But I don't always get involved when it's two people who were long-term clients. Sometimes it's like yesterday I had...

a woman who came and is contemplating divorce. She's asked for a divorce. She looked at the financial statement for the first time ever just yesterday. And she's like, I figured I ought to look at it because I was coming and talking to you. Then also yesterday was a woman who's now a year into being divorced. She got divorced a year ago and now she's...

She's kind of cycling through her first year and sharing what that experience has been like for her. And I also have another client who's 15 years in and needs to renegotiate the settlement. So we can talk about fear as something that is con.

Something to be contemplated, something to have worked through, and be on the other side. And sometimes that fear comes back years later because, you know, the agreement that we think is the last agreement might not be the last agreement. It might not be the last time you have to deal with each other.

Tania Leichliter (: 06:38

One of the things that you said early on, as you started talking, was this idea of acceptance. And I believe that that really is the crux of all of this because I have friends where the woman is the breadwinner and their spouse doesn't make as much money.

And they have said that they don't want to get divorced because they don't want to part with their money. And I feel like it doesn't matter if it's a woman who's a breadwinner or a man who's a breadwinner. It just doesn't matter. I think that it's really hard to accept the fact that you're going to be living with less.

I've had other clients who don't want to give up half their pension. And my answer is, well, who said you had to give up your pension? Because you don't. And that's what people create truths around this financial fear. So the thoughts around your financial circumstances are just your thoughts. They're the truths that you're creating and not the facts.

The fact is, you might have $2 million in overall assets, 401 Ks, investments, real estate, et cetera. So that might be a fact. Like, your overall estate is $2 million. The thought is, I have to give up this. I have to give up that. I have to give up that. That's all negotiable, right? So if the pension is non-negotiable, you say, I'm not willing to give up my pension. But there are a lot of other things that you can negotiate around.

You can get more at home, you can do whatever. So, how do you talk people off a cliff? They come to you with this enormous financial fear, and they're worried about whether they're contemplating divorce. So they just don't know how they're gonna pull this all together, have a roof over their head. They're gonna be able to have to pay some level of, if they have children taking care of their kids, their cars, what are the questions you ask them? How do you get them?

out of their own heads and giving them more security.

Tom Shepard (: 08:32

So, the back to this notion of acceptance, the acceptance that we're asking people to entertain is the notion that things are going to be different. You know, they're going to be different. Like, that's the level of acceptance.

When you start looking at all the pieces, and you say the goal here, especially in an amicable divorce, is to try and see all the pieces as.

maneuverable, like we don't want to lock in on something and say it has to be solved this way. So accept that change is coming, open to looking at it as holistically as you can, also in many instances recognizing that money is just one of the factors.

Money is one of the factors that's actually the most liquid, the most fungible, the one that can be moved around and thought about and played with in many different ways because it is so material and so visible. But, you know, time matters, relationship.

matters, energy, then health matters. This one woman, who was renegotiating after many years, was scared. She was afraid. She's like, I don't know if I can live without the amount of money that I was getting, but now it seems like he's got a circumstance that I'm going to have to work around.

And so, the issue is twofold. Number one is it's about money, yes, but it's also about, could it potentially be better for you if you look at the lack of money in this negotiation as also being an entry for you to ask for something else. So this something else might be more of something else or less of something else. So let's use energy and time as an example. Maybe less money means, okay, if you're gonna give me less money, you have to get more involved.

The kids lives, you need to be more involved in helping to take care of something with your time and your energy. Or if you're going to back out with the money, just back out completely, you know, and, and, and, and let me be truly free of having to not only take your money, but also take your advice and, and, and, and be involved in this.

word exchange kind of relationship. So it's never as simple as money because there are these other currencies that we are also negotiating about how those are gonna change too. this...

This woman that I was talking to yesterday, we'll call her Beverly. I was just struck by how healthy her relationship is with her new financial circumstance, one year in, because she doesn't have to answer to any.

She's coming at problems and coming up with solutions on her own. And it's all part of her experience that is much less about money and much more about just the freedom to make decisions on my own.

I'm responsible for protecting myself, managing myself, and pursuing my future for myself. And I don't have to share it with anybody. and you know, what a great place she's in a year later. Now I met her when she was at the tail end of it. And you know, clearly there was some uncertainty and some fear that caused her to come and seek us out. And one of the things that she did early on was

She said, Okay, I'm gonna need a little bit of money from this pot of money. And she turned it on, and she was receiving like $1,000 a month for a couple of months. She's like, you know what, I don't need it. She's like, but I needed to experience getting it in order to know that I didn't need it and that I could then turn it off and trust that it'll be there if I do need it.

Tania Leichliter (: 12:48

Yeah, I went through that same, you know, experience with my financial advisor. I think that I was very similar to the woman that you had spoken with. I was excited not to have any buddy controlling me as it related to money. I got to make my own decisions, do with it what I wanted to. I didn't have to check in or had to, you know, collaborate or, you know, make decisions together.

I think that in my scenario, I felt like I was an equal partner, but didn't have an equal amount of control over where the finances or money were going. So it felt really good to be able to be a sole proprietor of my own, you know, decision-making. And, I think that it's a really empowering thing, you know, for an individual to be able to leave a relationship and recognize and accept that it's.

going to be a change. But yet, it's a change that creates excitement because you not only challenge yourself to upskill yourself in understanding something that you might not have understood. And that's part of the healing process. Part of the healing process is feeling that confidence and courage that you can do this on your own, and that you don't need somebody else to oversee it.

It takes effort to upskill, it takes effort to understand, but it feels so empowering when you do. It's like an awesome pat on the back. You're like, I didn't know I had the capacity to learn and do because I had somebody maybe learning and doing for me, just as the way you might've divided those roles up in the past. But part of that healing process is taking on that challenge, taking on the challenge, accepting where you are, understanding where you are.

Like you said, put some safeguards in there. Like she came to you and thought she needed a safety net, and she was able to communicate with you what she felt like she needed. And I did exactly the same thing. I think I had an LAL that I, you know, set up just in case I, you know, needed to get access to cash. And there are a lot of ways to do that, you know, with your financial planner.

And if you're, you know, owning a home, you can also see if you can get a home equity line of credit. So again, rainy day, you could definitely have that on call if you needed it, but working with your financial planner to heal from that financial fear, to recognize that there are ways to not have to be fearful. There are obviously a lot of people who don't have any money in the bank and they are getting divorced.

And that is definitely a different conversation. No money in the bank and no job. You know, that is definitely a more difficult conversation to have. But again, you can work with like someone who's going to do an earning capacity evaluation on you and figure out what your earning capacity is, and then get some skills, upskilled vocational training, so you can start making some money instead of saying, whoa, it's me. I can't do anything. I'm not.

capable. That's not true. Everybody out there is capable. Even if you've been, you know, staying at home and taking care of your kids and managing calendars and schedules and carpooling and food shopping and cooking and doing medical appointments, those are all careers.

Tom Shepard (: 15:56

So when, when we, when we stop and we think about what we are accepting? And I said, we're accepting that change is coming. And so if you don't have a job and you have no money in the bank, change is coming. You know, it doesn't matter whether you have a ton of money in the bank and a great job; change is coming. So this notion of change is coming.

For somebody who feels like they have so little, we can actually turn that on its head and get excited about the fact that change is coming. Because in some respects, when relationships are dysfunctional enough to lead to divorce, it may often be the case that a person is sort of allowing themselves to be a victim of the circumstance.

And so change is coming, and accepting it allows you to look at the pieces through the lens of how much can I earn if I'm on my own and I'm and I have to. How much

Is it going to cost to ensure my health if I'm on my own and I make no money? You know, it's not going to cost you a lot. So, there are truths that are hard to see when you are together with somebody else, and that circumstance presents you with.

You know, factual information, and then you attach to that factual information, but you know, some changes are coming in. And so we have to actually help you get to the other side and see what it will be like when it is different.

And it's not just divorce, you know, somebody who is contemplating retirement might not be retiring because of health insurance, not realizing that on the other side of retirement, when you make no money, you might be able to access really inexpensive insurance, health insurance.

The marketplace is very different for a single person who doesn't make much money versus a married person who's part of something. And then, you know, the question of spousal support versus earned income, how do you answer the questions? So

Life presents us with all kinds of transitional moments. Divorce is just a special case. And so if we accept that we are getting divorced, we can accept that change is coming. We can start to actually pull people apart and show them what it will look like, and deal with facts. But facts are just how things are.

And they shine a light, they help us look into the future and say, that's how things are, but how do we want them to be? And that's where that self-assessment and reflection is so powerful because...

You know, I like to think back to when I was 15 years old and I looked ahead 15 years and I thought I'm going to be a millionaire, right? Like I had a, I had a certain amount of confidence that at 15, I'm going to learn some stuff. Um, but you know, then if we're like 40 or 45 or 50 years old, we sometimes are like living a life where we feel a little beaten up and we don't have that kind of confidence that we had as a 15-year-old, despite the fact that we have 30 more years of experience and you know more things.

And so part of separation is rediscovering who you are, so that you can start to get connected to being the creator of your own change that you have accepted is coming.

Tania Leichliter (: 19:32

Yeah, and that's really about overcoming the fear. Because when you set yourself up like that, when you have accepted that change is coming, when you, if you, like you said, if you have nothing, then change is coming. If you have something, change is coming. And that, you know, having fear around having nothing could be flipped in terms of your thoughts, because you can look at it as a place of excitement. Because if I'm coming from a place of nothing and I have intent,

Tom Shepard (: 19:35

Yeah.

Tania Leichliter (: 19:59

to have something that there's excitement around that, if you can gain the courage and drive to move your life forward, right? So I think that there are those two concepts that we talk about in coaching, the victim mentality versus the victor mentality. And you have a choice. There's an acronym that goes alongside each of those. So the victim mentality.

is BED, B-E-D, which means that blame, excuses, and denial. So if you are someone who just can't get out of bed, you are working through claiming victim. And it's nobody else's fault in this world. If you point the blame at somebody, you are giving them all the power over your emotions, right? I hear this all the time in divorce,

If he or she just didn't do this or he or she did that, it's all about pointing fingers back. Excuses come left and right. I have so many medical things that I'm just not gonna be able to get a job, excuse. I mean, there are a million things you can do. Even if you have some medical issues, there's still work to be done from home that you could get paid for.

And just denial, denial of self, denial of what you're capable of. That, of course, is just that victim mentality. And the acronym for Victor is OR, meaning that you are taking accountability, you're taking responsibility, and ownership. So ownership, accountability, and responsibility. And the visual around that is imagine you're in a boat. You are

Tom Shepard (: 21:37

Mm-hmm.

Tania Leichliter (: 21:38

Growing up river, right? And there are currents that are coming against you, but you keep pushing your boat forward. That is being a victor. You're someone who takes ownership, you take accountability and responsibility for where you are. You have that acceptance, but you are going to move upstream. And that you know that if you take that responsibility on yourself to get to where you want to be, you can do it. You just have to put that effort in.

So I think that so much of what happens in divorce, especially the something that's creating this financial fear, is looking at the lens by which you are looking at your life. Are you a victim or are you a victor? And I think those two classifications, if everybody could really think about it and how they look at life right now, no matter where you are in this process.

You know, if you can move yourself over to that Victor lens and recognize that, the currents are going to be tough and you are going to need to be rowing upstream. But again, you can do that if you have the right support team in place. Like I said, you know, work with a financial planner, work with an earning capacity evaluator, work with a coach, you know, people who can help you, you know, manage.

Tom Shepard (: 22:32

you

Tania Leichliter (: 22:57

How are you going to overcome your victim mentality and this financial fear to move your life forward? But it all comes from that acceptance of change, like you said.

Tom Shepard (: 22:59

Hmm.

Yeah, part of what we help people do is take a vision for how life could be and turn it into something that gives you material representations in terms of what my income could be. What would my expenses look like? What kind of assets am I going to have after the divorce? What kind of liabilities am I going to have after the divorce?

And so while you're negotiating about all that stuff, you can start to create different scenarios to show what it will be. And then you can begin to imagine creating something better in the future than you ever had in the past.

And it's that kind of exercise that begins to rewire your brain. You know when we, when we are used to certain patterns and we're looking at, okay, change is coming. Like you're gonna be able, you're going to have to create some different patterns. And so if you have to create different patterns, don't you want to choose good patterns? Like that, you want to choose the kind of

relationship with time and money, the world that's positive and uplifting, and, potentially even better than whatever you, whatever pattern you were stuck in that led you to decide that you want it out. And so this, this ability to envision change in a positive way.

It starts with that, accepting that change is coming, and then you start working with the materiality of it to craft something that will be better, so that you don't have to be bitter.

Tania Leichliter (: 24:52

Yeah, exactly. Better than bitter. We

All should be better than bitter. It's just so cathartic, in my opinion, to meet with my financial planner, because there are so many limiting beliefs, or what I say, stories that you make up in your head over time, in your day-to-day life, that kind of build up

and cause you this anxiety or fear. But when you come to the table with a financial planner and you sit down with the facts, you can throw away the limited beliefs or so much of the stories you're telling yourselves. And then you can recategorize to say, okay, these are the truths, these are the facts, and these are my truths that I've literally been creating in my head.

walk out of that room and feel like I just threw away all of those limiting beliefs. I just threw away all of those stories I've been telling myself because you're sticking with the facts, and then you're able to, like you said, come up with different scenarios, but with the facts. Like if you do X, Y, and Z, this is what's gonna happen. And if you do, you know, A, B, and C, this is what's gonna happen. But you have choices to make.

And when you walk out the door with choices and a vision for what is possible, know, again, the scenarios include earning, the scenarios don't include not earning. It's just about, if I make X amount per year, this is what these are my choices. If I make Y, these are my choices.

When do I want to retire? Like, when do I, there are all of those different things, but you're staying with very factual information when you go see a financial planner, but you're taking into account what's important to you. Like you said, your time, your energy, relationships, like they're asking you all those questions, like let's create a plan that takes into consideration not only what you want to do, but how you want to feel, it's like,

Living, I just sold my house two days ago. Yes. You would think that I would be elated because it went quickly. I got asked all good. I'm not elated, but I'm going to have money in the bank, and that should help me,

Tom Shepard (: 26:51

Congratulations.

No

Tania Leichliter (: 27:06

changed the path of what my life was gonna look like moving forward. Originally, in my divorce, I was gonna hold onto the house for two years post when my son went to college. And just due to market conditions and things just happening in the world, a lot of unknowns, I just decided that financially it was the right time for me to sell.

The prices were still high. The inventory was low. There's a handful of good, qualified buyers out there since the ones that are actually buying homes are good buyers. And I just decided to do it. And again, like you said, change is inevitable. When you make that change is something in divorce that is fluid.

You think you're gonna do one thing and having a good financial planner by your side to be able to say, like, have you considered, I know you were thinking about this, but financially, you'll be in a better position to not be house for. So many people try to stay in their houses and get divorced longer than they really should because they're trying to maintain a stable place for their kids and all those things. And I get it, I went through every single one of those emotions. I did, I'm with everybody.

I'm with you, I'm still with you. My son is like, we have a move-out date August 20th, and I'm not going to school until August 28th, Mom. And I'm like, well, we have an apartment. And he's just like, I don't want all that change. So again, like I'm dealing with like a whole bunch of emotions, right? Those are not really related to.

me doing what's right for me financially and for the family and for the kids moving forward, because this was the right move for all of us financially. But it creates a whole other slew of emotions on the other side for all of us. I wasn't planning on leaving the house. The kids didn't want us to leave the house so quickly. But like you said, change is inevitable. And you have to embrace that change and know that to get over that financial fear, sometimes you have to make tough

emotional decisions, there are a lot of tough decisions out there to make when you're getting worse.

Tom Shepard (: 29:00

Yeah, for a certain type of person, making a decision to change is really hard for other people. It's looking at the pros and the cons over and over and over and over again. And, and, know, knowing that you've already kind of done it, but doing it again, that's, that's a different type of person.

And then there are other people who just embrace change like they put on their shoes every morning. For some people, change is seen as the best thing. They get bored with the same thing. But where you might be happy to experience change when you start to bring in other people.

Tania Leichliter (: 29:35

That's me.

Tom Shepard (: 29:43

And now you're forcing change onto another person, and then they don't like it, but you value the relationship you have with them. Okay. Yeah. Granted. It's not always about money. It's oftentimes those other currencies, the relationship thing, the experience thing, the time thing, the energy thing. I was, I was working with this gentleman who, he's like, I can't afford.

This level of spousal support. I can't afford it. And I said, yeah, but it is what it is. And so, can you not afford it because of your own habits? Is it possible that, like you're having to come up with this level of alimony, means that you have to sort of take a second hard look at the way you spend money? You know?

Maybe it's time to quit smoking. It's time to quit drinking. Maybe it's time to go to the gym and repurpose how some of your money gets spent. But conversely, maybe it's an opportunity to look at earning more money. Maybe the job you're in is no longer the job you should be in. You know, I was working with a woman who

You know, not only is she a single mom, she's recently divorced, but she also lost her job. And she's like, I think it might've been the best thing to ever happen to me because I was, I felt like things were beginning to stagnate. And this is my attitude is change is coming, and this isn't being done to me. It's being done for me. And so I'm opening myself up to the opportunity to earn more money.

And I said, That's great. Now, what I didn't anticipate was that she was going to ask me for more money because she was interviewing for a job with me. So I was helping her literally negotiate with me. ⁓ And so I'm like, boy, I really hope that you have all of the skills that I've.

Tania Leichliter (: 31:26

That's funny.

Tom Shepard (: 31:36

Saw that you had when I was, when I was talking to you as a, as an advisor, as a, as a coach, as a, as a fan, as someone to encourage you, I hope you have all that stuff because it's, know, if I hire you and I have to pay you that much money, then I want to make sure that this is, this is good for both of us. You know, so, so change it's, it's, it's coming.

But it isn't something that is necessarily going to be bad for us. But it is something that if we are fearful, we can look at that fear and we can pull that apart and we can start looking at how to get all the little pieces to be on the table where we can put them back together and putting them back together in a way that is even better than it was before. That's what

Now, you know, that's the place that we want to help people get in touch with that hope, but have that hope not just be, you know, dreams, but actually a plan of what steps and what actions will allow you to get to that place.

Tania Leichliter (: 32:44

I, honestly, the last three sentences you just said are where I want to wrap this up because that was Tania's three top tips, all wrapped up into three sentences. I can summarize: change is coming. And just because change is coming doesn't mean change is bad. And that once you understand that change is coming,

Tom Shepard (: 32:54

Right?

Mm-hmm.

Tania Leichliter (: 33:06

Once you have a place of acceptance that not all change is going to be bad, you can lay everything out on the table and really begin to think about a plan and how, like you said, money is one of those things that's fungible and movable and you can move things around. And once you get a better understanding of the way your money motivates,

Whether you are somebody who's a protector or a manager, or a pursuer of money, you can begin to think about what's important to you and how you're gonna embrace that. Is it your time? Is it your energy? Is it the relationships that you're gonna trade for, and how you can come up with a plan to reduce this fear that you've created in your head? Yeah, change is coming, but it does not have to be bad.

and understanding that you have the capacity to approach change from a victor mentality, that you are going to be rowing up that stream, but you take ownership, responsibility, and accountability for your own actions moving forward. And you can have a plan, no matter what stage you are in this divorce process, making sure that you're working with somebody.

Like a financial advisor to overcome some of this financial fear, allowing for your own mind to wander in all these different places without creating a concrete understanding of your starting place is only going to make that fear grow. So again, I really appreciate your time, Tom. Today was really great. I love this idea of changes coming. think

What a great title that maybe this episode will have to take on from a life of its own. But I thank you again. This has been a three-part series with Tom Shepard from Shepard Financial. He has written a book called Money Isn't Everything. Everything is Money. And you can check out his currency camp at currencycamp.com. Make sure that you take his quick quiz.

to find out your financial nature. It will be really interesting for you to do that. And again, Tom, thank you so much for being a guest on the Better Than Bitter podcast.

Tom Shepard (: 35:25

It's been a pleasure. Thank you.

Tania Leichliter (: 35:26

Thanks for tuning in to Better Than Bitter, navigating an amicable divorce. Whether you are at the beginning of your divorce journey, midway through, or even done, we want the stories from our guests to give you hope that an amicable resolution is possible. If you'd like to dive deeper into today's episode, check out our show notes for a full transcript, reflections, and links to learn more about Better Than Bitter's coaching courses.

and how to connect with our fabulous guests. If you're ready for more support, you can head over to betterthanbitter.coach. Daily, you'll find details and additional information on our five-step game plan multimedia course, our one-to-one Zoom coaching, group coaching, monthly memberships, events and retreats, and a whole lot more. Plus, we've got a ton of free resources, like our monthly newsletter,

our private Facebook group, Instagram channel, and a library of articles and free webinars to help you along the way. When you go to our website, you'll be able to schedule a free 45-minute breakthrough call. Remember, we're here to help you reach an amicable resolution. Find your courage and believe in your brighter future because you know what? It is possible.

At Better Than Bitter, we measure success by what we give and not by what we get. So let's change the divorce dialogue together. It's time to be better than bitter.