Introduction (: 00:06

Welcome to the Better Than Bitter Divorce Podcast, where we flip the script on divorce and show you how to have a more amicable divorce resolution. I'm your host, Tania Leichliter a divorce coach, a certified life coach, and the mastermind behind the Better Than Bitter five-step game plan course, where I help individuals build a pathway towards a more amicable divorce resolution.

Each week, I'll bring you uplifting stories from people who've successfully experienced amicable separations, proving that divorce doesn't have to be a battleground. Whether you're overwhelmed with grief, struggling with custody and co-parenting, or just dealing with a high-conflict individual, this podcast is here to guide you towards reclaiming your life and being what I know is possible, better than bitter.

Tania Leichliter (: 01:44

Welcome to the Better Than Bitter Podcast, episode number 35. Today we are going to be talking about dads, divorcing dads who have major struggles between fatherhood, dating, maybe taking on new responsibilities. And today I have a guest. His name is Matteo Bavaro. And Matteo is a life coach, he's an author, and he is the founder of Divorce Dads Help.

It's a coaching platform that really is dedicated to helping fathers, fathers who want to rediscover their best selves after divorce.

He's got 30 years of experience as a private investigator and is now serving as the director of client engagement at Schulz and Associates, which is a law firm. And it's a law firm that is focused on men's and father's rights. So he dedicated himself to this world of men that men live in, fathers. And so he brings both professional and personal insight into this journey of fatherhood after divorce.

And as you know, I always want to bring on guests who have had divorces, have gone through the divorce process. And Matteo, well, he's gone through two. And now he empowers men to reconnect with their children, overcome limiting beliefs, and build a purpose-driven life. His mission, well, he aligns perfectly with mine at Better Than Bitter. So I'm so happy to have Matteo joining us today.

helping men resentful. Welcome, Matteo.

Matteo (: 03:16

Thank you, Tania, for having me on your podcast.

You know, I just love what you're doing. So thanks for doing what you do.

Tania Leichliter (: 03:24

Well, I love people who also have aligned missions. They really realize that we do have the opportunity to be better than bitter. Like I said, to many of my clients, I'm not telling you divorce is going to feel warm and fuzzy when you're going through the process. I'm just telling you that you do have an opportunity for a more amicable resolution.

At the end and the way that you approach your divorce, the way you learn how to communicate more effectively and the way that you really do work on yourself through that process, trying to be the best version of yourself. We can't go backwards and redo where we came from, but we do have an opportunity to grow. And I always say that...

Divorce isn't about failure. Divorce is about personal growth and it's about self-discovery. And we have a new opportunity to change the course of our next chapter of our lives.

Matteo (: 04:14

Absolutely, absolutely.

The many experiences I've had in my life, getting divorced was one that I could say was probably the biggest when it comes to personal growth that I've ever experienced. So yeah, you're 100 % right about that.

Tania Leichliter (: 04:30

The three different things that I believe men who are going through divorce really struggle with are. One is fatherhood, taking on this new fatherhood role, which is in a co-partnership versus a together partnership. The second is dating. I get a lot of men who come to me, and they want to get back out there.

But again, if they've got a co-parenting responsibility and they have custody, getting back out there and getting themselves ready for that, and then how to juggle that with having some sort of custody is always challenging. And the other part of it is, my gosh, I have to now do absolutely everything, which before it was like divide and conquer.

And now it's like, my God, there's no his role, my role, their role, you know, everything, you've got to do everything. And we do too, as you know, the spouses, so it's not just a man thing, it's a mother thing as well.

all of a sudden solo parenting and you're like, oh my gosh, like, I haven't gone to the supermarket and God knows how long or I know how to do laundry, but like I was just kind of doing the laundry and somebody was folding laundry or, you know, it's like all I have to go food shopping. I have to put three meals on the table. I have to pack lunches. I

I have to organize the carpools and the play dates and make sure that the teenager isn't doing something they shouldn't be doing. And you're doing it all alone, for the most part.

Matteo (: 06:02

There are three different aspects of life after divorce. And like you said, the first is the actual divorce itself and what you go through. And now all of a sudden, you're used to seeing your child on a daily basis, and now you're not. You're seeing them every other weekend and maybe once a week at best if you don't get this 50-50 shared custody.

And then there's the aspect of doing everything on your own, trying to put yourself out there and go on dates, and how do you navigate that? And then, of course, the co-parenting aspect is, I think, the most; it could be amazing, but I find for most men, it's very difficult because there's a reason why you're not together, because you're not on the same page on many things. So if you're not on the same page,

Usually in a relationship, it kind of transfers over to parenting and and I think that's where That's where a lot of difficulties lie, and I could explain how it went for me. Are you ready for that?

Tania Leichliter (: 07:04

Yeah, let's do that. Let's do that. Because it's interesting that you say that, because I think that when we were married, like in my marriage, we did struggle to be on the same page in the style of parenting. We both came from different styles of parenting. We parented differently, but upon divorce, we really came together. And our co-parenting is so much better as a divorced couple.

than we were as a married couple. So again, I think it has to do with growth, and it has to do with doing the work and understanding how to communicate more effectively with one another. And that brings together a co-parenting situation. So I would love to hear your story. Cause like I said, my story is maybe unique. I think we're doing it better now than we ever have.

Matteo (: 07:52

My first divorce, I didn't have children. So that was it was manageable, you know, besides the heartbreak and just going through that part. That was tough, but it's something that time heals. But I really found that during my second divorce was, I would say, the most painful chapter of my life. My daughter was about to turn two, and I went from, being a full-time dad to every other weekend, like I said earlier, and maybe once a week. And it was tough to get on the same page because it was, you I just kept looking at what the other side was doing.

Things I couldn't control, I tried to control. And there were years of, you know, and I'm not putting blame on my ex, but it's not something she did intentionally, but there was, I didn't even know what this was at the time, but I've learned that it is negative gatekeeping.

And like I said, not to put any blame on anyone. And it could be it could be it could be the man. It could be the woman. But I just found that, you know, there were years of missed calls, you know, withheld information, you know, maybe on both ends. I'm sure I was to blame for part of that as well. And again, not to blame anyone, but there were subtle and not-so-subtle comments made, you know.

And it affected my daughter more than anything. She grew further and further apart from me.

Tania Leichliter (: 09:08

I think that most people refer to it as parental alienation.

Matteo (: 09:09

Yeah, it's kind of it's a lighter kind of more

So, for example, if your kids are coming home from the dad's, let's say, and the mom says, Hey, what did you do this weekend? You know, we went to the park. nice. Who did you play with? Well, there were no kids there. You went to a park. There were no kids. Wow. OK. What did you eat?

Well, you know, I had a bag of potato chips. OK. You didn't have food like real food. No. Dad just gave me chips, and then we ate after. OK. So it's that kind of stuff, right? Where it's and then it kind of follows up with, well, hey, why don't you go take a shower, and I'll make your favorite meal? Right. It's that kind of language that really it's it's it seems.

It seems very innocent, but it is damaging to a child because they start piecing these, the, this, this type of language together with, wait a minute, my dad didn't give me a proper meal or what? He didn't bring me to a place where those, I had company and kids to play with, and that kind of stuff. Right. Does that make sense?

Tania Leichliter (: 10:17

Yeah, so it's interesting how you positioned it that way. And we both are coaches. And at the end of the day, you can't control what the other parent's going to do. You're not going to be able to control what the other parent's going to say. The only thing you can control is how you react to it. And so we are only in control of our reactions. And in doing that,

We are also only in control of our own thoughts about the circumstances. So again, those thoughts are creating feelings within us. Those feelings are what create the actions, reactions, and behaviors. So, however we're scripting it, you know, the child comes back and was like, Mom said you didn't give me a proper meal the last time I was here. You know, that might be a fact. How you interpret that or what you decide to make that mean is what's going to create that emotion in you as the parent who's hearing that from their child.

And when you hear that, you have a choice. You go back, you go yell at your ex-wife and say, Why are you even saying that to the kids? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Well, what's the result you're going to get from that? If you're attacking and threatening her, she's going to attack and threaten you right back. So the next time, she's going to do it again, because again, it's the battle of the wills. So, where would you go with it?

Matteo (: 11:37

I was trying to control what was happening on the other side, which I had no control over. But that was eating. That was really eating at me, and hearing, you know, I'd hear these subtle comments here and there. For example, if my daughter were to call her mom, the first thing out of her mouth would be what's wrong?

Hi honey, how are you? Or whatever. It was always what's wrong insinuating that something is wrong with the call, right? So that used to just bug me. And it was a real power struggle, to kind of, the whole situation was a bit of a power struggle when it came to doing certain things with our daughter and co-parenting. So yeah, I think what changed for me was when I let go of trying to control things and trying to control how she responded, which,

has nothing to do with me. All I can control is how I respond to it. And like you said, knowing, responding in a way that's caring and not, you're not trying to put any negativity on the other parent, is huge. It's huge for the child. So I think that was the big shift when, you know, the number one thing I would tell men is stop trying to control the narrative from the other side. Just stop.

Just worry about what you're doing and how you're showing up for your child.

Tania Leichliter (: 12:52

Exactly. if you believe that you took your child to a place that there was no kids there and you weren't feeding them proper meals, and that's what you were hearing from the other side, the only thing that you can control is your thoughts about what you did that day with your child and that you can do better the next time if you believe you have to. You know, I actually remembered a great story about Dad's days.

When I was married and I went on a trip with my three best girlfriends from college, and we were all pregnant, but one was pregnant with their first, one was pregnant with their second, which was me. And then we had one who was pregnant with their third and one who was pregnant with the fourth. Pregnant with the first one obviously didn't have any comments back because they didn't have any kids at home. I wrote a 5-page essay on what to do with the kid who's at home to my husband at the time.

Like what to eat, what to sleep, how to wear, what, you know, every single little direction possible was in my document. Number three was smart. Number three was like, all right, I've got two kids. I've got one on the way. My husband needs support. So she actually hired a babysitter to babysit the babysitter that they normally have, who knows what to do with the kids, to shadow the dad, you know, to just be there for him when he needed it.

Matteo (: 14:01

Huh.

Tania Leichliter (: 14:09

And they weren't there to micromanage him just when he needed support, And then number four, literally packed her bag, walked out the door and was like, these kids are going to eat peanut butter and jelly sandwiches all weekend and be happy as freaking clams. They are going to throw their clothes on the floor. They are going to be all so happy. When I get back, they are not going to be happy to see me. So.

Matteo (: 14:19

here.

Tania Leichliter (: 14:32

Again, I don't think it's just divorced versus not divorced. I think in general, depending on the roles you play every day in your lives, women tend to judge men in their capacity.

Matteo (: 14:42

Yeah, yeah, they do that a little bit. You're right.

Tania Leichliter (: 14:49

Right? Even if you were married and you took your daughter out to the park and you would come home, your wife at the time would like, what would feed her?

Matteo (: 14:54

True, true, very true, very true. And

can't get married truly when you're divorced, right?

Tania Leichliter (: 15:01

I don't even know if it's a, I think there's always a negative gatekeeper in your house, most likely. I'm making crazy assumptions here, and I'm not trying to stereotype whatsoever. But then again, I'm a mom and I know, I'm micromanaged too, especially the eating and the playing and things like that. So I think it's all our mindset.

on how we decide to interpret what's happening. Is this happening because of the divorce, or is this just happening because it has always happened?

Matteo (: 15:31

That's very true. Very good points, for sure. Yeah.

Tania Leichliter (: 15:36

Yeah, right. So obviously we're here because you support dads, and it's so great. And so tell me a little bit more about why dads come to you and how you support them, you know, in some of these instances. Like I'm all about tools in your toolbox. And I think coaching is so great because it gives tools in your toolbox, whereas therapy does.

Matteo (: 15:50

Okay.

Tania Leichliter (: 16:02

is, and I gave the example the other day about a friend of mine, she went to therapy, she goes, she talks it out, she comes back, and something happens again. And I was like, but what kind of tools in your toolbox did your therapist give you in order to deal with this situation? And they said, I just have to book another appointment to go back to therapy to talk to her.

And I'm like, that's the difference between coaching and therapy. It was like, coaching is gonna give you those tools, right? To march yourself forward. So you come to a situation, you've got the tools, and then you can actually guide yourself out of whatever situation.

Matteo (: 16:40

Like you're so accurate with that 100%. And what happens when men come to me is they're struggling. Okay. They're struggling to connect or even reconnect because they've lost connection with their child. And they really, they're really struggling and they don't know what to do. It's hard, you know, and like to your point, you know, when you, when you go to a therapist,

know, talk therapy is great. It does work for some people, but it's not; it doesn't kind of hit the root cause of what your problem is. It kind of makes you feel better about the situation and what you're going in for. And that's great. But like you said, something else comes up and you're like, Whoa, how do I deal with this? So I find that men perhaps go through that at first. They might get some therapy because that's the advice they're given. You know, and they may try to even talk to their attorney about it.

when they're going through their divorce, and how to handle certain parenting situations and stuff. But, attorneys are great and they're absolutely needed. think they're, they're the, they're the most, one of the most important things when you're getting divorced. However, when you've gone past that, past the therapy, and you're completely stuck, they come to me. And one of the first things I do is, is I align their values. So I see,

where their values are in relationships, in parenting, in employment, in their career. I went through all of that. And basically, how I elicit their values is I ask them questions about why they want things, why it's important to them, and how it makes them feel when this versus that. And then I get a bunch of values listed.

And then I find out which value is more important in a certain area. So I'll give you an example. So if someone's, if I elicit someone's values and relationships, and their highest value is freedom, there's going to be a problem there, right? Because freedom and relationships kind of don't go hand in hand, right? So when I do that, it really exposes to the person what's how they're living their life. If they're living their life.

You know, with their friends all the time and having all this freedom, but they want a relationship and are wondering why it's not working out. Well, wait a minute. We need to realign those values to what you really want. And maybe a relationship is not what you really want based on how you're living. And another example is like, if you, if you value love, let's say, and you're not living in a loving way, then you're never going to fulfill that value. You're never going to get there.

because you're frustrated or stressed all the time, but your highest value is love. You'll never find it. You'll never get there, truly.

Absolutely, 100%, 100%.

Tania Leichliter (: 19:27

Well, that's also have to love yourself first,

right?

And I think that, yeah, I think that with relationships that are ending in divorce, so many ⁓ people believe they need connection, right? And the definition of connection is really different for a man and a woman. And that need for whatever physical intimacy or whatever that is, is meaningful.

Matteo (: 19:37

Yes.

Tania Leichliter (: 19:54

or defined as connection to one, whereas connection to the other, you know, might not be the same level of connection, right? Somebody wants to be heard, somebody wants to be seen, one person wants to be touched, you know, everybody has their different definition. And I think that the really interesting thing about what you were just talking about is about love, is like, we all have the...

Matteo (: 20:02

My beloved languages, yeah.

Tania Leichliter (: 20:17

maybe that we want to feel love, you we want that, but at the end of the day, unless you try to get to that place of loving yourself, you're never gonna really ever be able to love effectively because you're looking for love for a sense of validation or maybe for a different purpose.

And it's really hard to love when it's like selfishly needed.

Right? So I think what you're doing is so great as it relates to that. think that men coming to you are struggling, you know, and they're just like you said, they have all of these different things, the connection with their kids, like that's so huge. And it pains me when I see fathers who don't get to see their kids and

Again, it is, and I know that not everybody can do the 50-50. Mean, your career and your life don't allow for the 50-50 to happen. Logistics, you know, it's hard on the kids. You know, I think those are all really important things. So you deal with values, which I love, aligning values. You deal with love and figuring out what love means to them and what they're striving for. ⁓

Matteo (: 21:29

Well, I think one

Tania Leichliter (: 21:32

And what else?

Matteo (: 21:32

One of the most important things, besides their values, of course, is really self-realization. Really being self-aware of your thoughts, number one. Being the gatekeeper to your own thoughts, to your mind, and what's going through your mind throughout the day. And just kind of not so much judging.

you're you're you you call it in an NLP. We have the conscious mind and the unconscious mind and you know, we were we usually run our programs in the unconscious mind 90 95 % of our day is run unconsciously like things we don't think about like brushing our teeth and different things like that that we do every day different habits that we have and so being self aware of what's going on is is step number one.

When you're self-aware and you're not judgmental about that, just watch it and see where you're at. And just that's a big step. And one thing that I teach men is basically how to start their day, how to take control of their day, to, to really, you know, just, just go out there full of energy and, and, know, de-stressed, like most of us wake up in the morning. I'm sure you've heard this. This is,

said everywhere and you know what was the first thing you do you get on your cell phone and you start looking at emails and your testosterone goes down your estrogen goes up and you're all you're all stressed out already first thing in the morning and what my morning routine is and what I teach other men to do is when you wake up I go to the bathroom to brush my teeth is what normal most people do and however

I change things up a bit. Brush my teeth. right-handed. I brush with my opposite hand with my left hand, and it just triggers my right side of my brain to activate, which it's been sleeping all night. So now it's activated. And then I'll look in the mirror and I'll just, I'll stare in the mirror and actually stare at myself because most of us, we, as we look in the mirror, we're not really looking at ourselves. We're just, you know, looking, looking in the mirror, but not at ourselves.

And I put my hands down and I just say, love you 20 times. Like, I love you, I love, and it's amazing. It's amazing what it does. It just, there's a, there's there's, it's so soothing. It's a soothing feeling that you get that's hard to explain. Do that every day, and then you end it with a high five, both hands.

because every time we've ever given high-fives in our lives, we've been in a good mood. We were celebrating something. So you get a nice dopamine hit first thing in the morning, just by high-fiving the mirror, high-fiving yourself. That's how I start. And then I continue on, I go downstairs, and I do a breathing exercise. Sure, your people are familiar with Wim Hof.

Wim Hof has a breathing exercise on YouTube. It's basically 30 breaths in and then you hold your breath for a minute, a minute and a half, and you do three sets of that. And that really just gets oxygen in your body and really wakes you up, followed by a 10-minute meditation, gratitude, and things that I wanna accomplish for the day, for the week, for the year. And then do a little light exercise, it could be a half hour.

And I tell you, after starting your day that way, it just changes everything. Everything changes for you.

Tania Leichliter (: 25:09

I love those rituals. Those are great. I have been talking about another gratitude ritual that I had heard from a woman who does manifestation work. And she talks about gratitude and doing that first thing in the morning. But she gave this great exercise that gratitude doesn't have to be written down. It doesn't have to be like in a pad and paper. She's like, so you can do something

as simple as before you even get out of bed, and you're in your comfy bed, and you're feeling the sheets on your face, and you're moving your hands, like, know, in the nice down comforter that you might have. I have gratitude for this soft bed. I have gratitude for the comfort that I have had, you know, over the course of the night. I have gratitude for being able to open my eyes in the morning.

to the sun coming in through the window. Just literally that first moment of time where you just don't jump out of bed because the alarm goes off. Like give yourself a few minutes to just give gratitude for your sense of space and where you are in that moment. And I loved that because I have a really soft bed, and I do really have gratitude for that. And I really, I'm an early riser, but I really like it.

love the feeling of the sheets. It was just such a simple sensory thing. And I love the fact that you look in the mirror and you tell yourself you love yourself 30 times. I love that. I think I might be laughing if I did that, like, I think giving myself some high-fives. I mean like, all right, I got this today.

Matteo (: 26:48

It's funny, about a year ago, and for the first few weeks she was kind of like giving me a side eye, and now she's doing it, I've caught her doing it, so she does it too. It's great.

Tania Leichliter (: 26:57

That's great. I love that. So these are all great tools in your toolbox. I love that. So this is all our mindfulness work. This is, so we've talked about, how to kind of do a mental reset with our values, understanding love, understanding what makes us tick, like, what are our kind of overall life goals for where we're heading? We learn to love ourselves. We give ourselves space.

We do our mindfulness work to start our days. These are all incredible stress relievers, and it does, it totally flips that switch. And I have to remind myself, in the morning, to do that before my cup of coffee, because my cup of coffee is the thing that's like calling my name. So, I was like, okay, not yet. I got those few things I need to get done before I get my cup of coffee is like my reward.

And then I exercise. I can't exercise without sipping that coffee. Like the coffee has to come before. So everyone's got their own little, you know, morning rituals,

Matteo (: 27:58

100 %

You're starting your day right, and you just feel like after, so after I've done all that, I feel like I can go into any meeting, I can go into anything, because I've accomplished so much, and I have a bit of a dopamine hit. I feel good, I feel good. So I encourage everyone to do, to have a morning routine. It doesn't have to be just like that, but something that just gives you peace.

Tania Leichliter (: 28:20

So, do you have some level of accountability that you create around these types of things with the dads that you're working with? Because I think that it's always nice to say go do, but it's also really helpful. I know that I run a support group, and every week we talk about a different topic. So last week we talked about decluttering your room, which means decluttering your emotional space. And so we talked a lot about what that is and

How to do it, and then I give assignments and create accountability, and send a reminder. So the following week, we're gonna share the work to make sure that everybody actually did the work versus coming, listening, and then not doing. So, tell me a little bit more about how you say, keep everybody accountable.

Matteo (: 29:02

Okay, so depending on the person, some people are daily

check-ins through text, and some are weekly check-ins. And we just keep track of kind of how they started their day, what they did, what they didn't do, why they didn't do it. And kind of that's where we, that's kind of the foundational piece, where when we have our session, we dig down into the root cause of why they didn't do it and what exactly happened.

and how they felt about that. That's kind of how, and I find it really works. Like with some of the daily check-ins, I think the daily ones are even better because they really feel, you know, they may miss a day, but they won't miss more than one day. And the weekly check-ins, there could be one or two days that they had a late night or whatever the case may be that they've missed. But yeah, I really find that's one of the advantages of having a coach.

They will keep you accountable. And we all, if you think about it, we all have been coached our whole lives. Our parents were essentially our coaches, our teachers were our coaches. You don't just show up to school and they give you a bunch of books and say, Okay, come back at the end of the year and write your exam. Of course, they've coached you throughout the whole year, right? So I think coaches are the big accountability piece in a sense.

Tania Leichliter (: 30:24

Yeah, I deal so much with people who are beginning stages contemplating, you know, divorce so very early on, and it's so hard for them to all see straight, right? They're so worried about the divorce itself that they are having a hard time keeping track of themselves, right? So the divorce prioritizes itself. And so the support groups that we run are really good for that because it's making them on a day part in time, say, I'm committing to spending this time on me and that given that I have accountability for the next week, I'm going to have to spend a little bit more time on me.

And, you know, we'll be able to talk about it the following week. And then as I coach them, if they're doing one-to-one coaching, we can dig deeper into the divorce process, the support that they're going to need, the different professionals they should be hiring, not to write a five-page dissertation to the lawyer because they're going to pay for.

Every minute of that lawyer's time. So again, we revise, we bullet. So I'm dealing with the emotional side, but I'm also dealing with the logistics side to keep people accountable, to make sure they're not overspending on lawyers' fees and some of the other support stuff. So, well, I've really enjoyed, Matteo, learning all about you and dads really are... It's interesting because

You know, I think that there are so many women out there who are so verbal about where they are in this process and the support that they need. They're asking for help in all different arenas, whether it's Facebook or Instagram or TikTok, or they're joining support groups or going to the church support groups, or talking to their girlfriends. Men just don't open up like that.

And how do you, before we kind of wrap it up, I would be really interested to learn how men are finding you and how resistant they are to the process. And I work with men, you know, and I have some men clients and they seem to be, you know, open to working with a woman, but yet resistant around the emotional work that needs to be done.

How do these men find you?

Matteo (: 32:42

Right now, what I'm doing is I'm doing a series of videos telling men, basically sharing my story with men, and seeing if they resonate with what I'm saying and kind of my struggles. I use myself and my struggles to connect with men, and it's through various social media networks. And so some men do comment on that.

I do send them some free tips and tricks on certain things. And that's how kind of I get them in my ecosystem. I also have a website, and yeah, it's through a lot of word of mouth as well. People recommend me.

Men are afraid they're afraid to be judged, they're afraid to really

show their emotions and be open because they don't know. I mean, I can, I speak from, you know, experience coming, growing up in an Italian household where emotions were not shown. And I kind of, I was raised that way. So I understand where men are coming through. And I think a lot of men have been raised in that kind of family dynamic where, know, just suck it up and, you know, just carry on and, you know, forget about it.

kind of thing. I think what's happening is there's been a shift over the last several years with men opening up a little more, and it comes from exposure, from male coaches and female coaches, of course, as well. But I think we're headed in the right direction as for men to

kind of open up and really look deep inside at themselves to be their best version, not only for themselves, but for everyone around

Tania Leichliter (: 34:18

Yeah, I think that's such a great way to kind of wrap this up. I always give kind of the three top tips, Mateo, in terms of what I've learned today. And one, I do want to point out this idea around what you were calling negative gatekeeping. So I believe that that is something that does occur and that

you are only in control of the way you react to it. And sometimes re-scripting to not point the blame on the divorce, as I added to it, to get a better understanding, is this negative gatekeeping because we're divorced, or was this the exact behavior that was happening in my marriage? And so getting the thoughts aligned.

will prevent you from going down this road of the fact that they're trying to badmouth you to the child. So it might not be that, it might be that. I'm just trying to re-script it to allow for people to understand it's your thoughts that are creating your feelings. And if your thoughts about what's happening are that they're trying to prevent you from having a good relationship with your kid.

Could you re-script that by evaluating the actions that were taken to be like, actually, that actually has been happening the entire time. So this is no different than any other day. And part of that is you can never have an expectation that your ex is going to show up any differently than they always have, because you have no control over them. They might just continue to be the same person they always have been. So that's rule one. The second thing I've learned today is really about

being able to work with men and being able to give them some level of accountability and exploration around what are your values? Do you even know what they are? What are you looking for in your life? And you know, if love is that thing, what does love mean to you? If you're looking for a relationship, as you said, but you value freedom, how does that work together?

and being able to deep dive on that to say like, okay, that's this pretty special woman that I'm gonna wanna love because I still want my freedom. Not to say that those people aren't out there. I actually might be one of those people. I also like independence. And so, you know, there are individuals who have, anxious attachment style who they wanna be with you all the time.

And then there are those who have more of an avoidant attachment style. And if you're one of those people looking for a relationship, but you want your freedom, don't date an anxious attachment individual. tell you that much. And then the third thing is that, men in the last few years, like you said, are opening their eyes to vulnerability. They're opening their eyes.

In being emotionally available. They're opening their eyes to wanting to better themselves. And in order to better yourself, you have to get in touch with how you're feeling. You have to get in touch with telling people how you feel and not being ashamed of doing that. And I'm just going to add the last thing is don't forget Matteo's ritual. I love you. Love you. I love you. I love you. Love you. Love you. High five, high five.

So thank you again, Matteo, for coming on today. Such a great podcast episode. And everybody can find Matteo on Divorced Dad's Help. All of the information about Matteo will be in our show notes. Thank you for joining us at Better Than Bitter, and I hope that we can have you back on again in the near future.

Matteo (: 37:35

Thank you, Tania

Amazing, thank you for having me.

Tania Leichliter (: 37:56

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