Introduction (: 00:06

Welcome to the Better Than Bitter Divorce Podcast, where we flip the script on divorce and show you how to have a more amicable divorce resolution. I'm your host, Tania Leichliter a divorce coach, a certified life coach, and the mastermind behind the Better Than Bitter five-step game plan course, where I help individuals build a pathway towards a more amicable divorce resolution.

Each week, I'll bring you uplifting stories from people who've successfully experienced amicable separations, proving that divorce doesn't have to be a battleground. Whether you're overwhelmed with grief, struggling with custody and co-parenting, or just dealing with a high-conflict individual, this podcast is here to guide you towards reclaiming your life and being what I know is possible, better than bitter.

Tania Leichliter (: 01:08

Welcome to the Better Than Bitter Podcast, episode number four. Today we have Jeff Wensler. I am so excited for you all to be able to connect with him. He has degrees from Marquette University in Boston College. He is a motivational speaker, award-winning author of the book, The Pivotal Life, a compass for discovering purpose, passion, and perspective.

and he is a resilience mentor, an international servant an executive producer for the $10 perspective, a humanitarian, a wannabe photographer, an avid hiker, a dad of three teenagers, and a dog rescuer. He has been amicably divorced for 10 years, and the way that he describes his life now is that he is playing zone defense with his three teenagers.

So currently he's teaching at a high school. He teaches social justice in this urban school in Milwaukee where the zip code has the highest level of incarcerations. And when he is not teaching, he is frequenting his 12 by 12 home in the Jamaica landfill community where he mentors single mothers and their children in just crazy extreme poverty. So welcome Jeff.

Jeff (: 02:28

Thank you, it's so good to be with you.

Tania Leichliter (: 02:30

So I have spent the last couple of weeks reading your book, The Pivotal Life. I have to say that it was such an amazing read, you have such an amazing story to tell. And the way that you have pivoted your life just really can showcase what is possible when you believe that there is no hope in your life. And a lot of people that are getting divorced

just can't see tomorrow, right? Their life just feels like it's shattered. All of their dreams for what they thought their life was gonna be is now gonna have to change. And it's really hard to pivot, pivot with positivity. I just wanted to reflect on the messages that you have in your book.

I'm looking down because I've taken such crazy notes. And I just wanted you to talk to me a little bit about the beginning stages of where you began your journey life pivots and how you were able to apply all of these different skills around resilience to your own divorce

Jeff (: 03:39

So when I was five, just kidding. you know, I think at every one of the crossroads that I've come encounter with and decisions to be made, discernment, asking me at myself, what's my role, asking myself, you know, is it worth it? All those different things. A lot of it does come back from a very emotional moment in my life where

Tania Leichliter (: 03:42

Ha ha ha!

Jeff (: 04:08

It just happened to be that on my 20th birthday, my 25-year old brother died in my arms. And that just shocked me, right? That just shocked me to my core. And I share that because sometimes when other things happen to you in your life, you know, it can trigger things, right?

And, you know, divorce is one of those moments where you question a lot of things, right? And it is loss, right? Life is just a series of losses. And in one sense, I can say that, you know, it beat me down and I triumphed, I overcame that and I found ways to deal with that. And that gave me hope. You use the word hope and I think gratitude and hope and perspective are huge words in my life.

But they were, you think that you go through something, you get through it one time and that that's it, right? Like I've beaten this, I've gotten through cancer, I've gotten through divorce, or I've gotten through addiction, whatever the things that life throws your way. you know, it's just constant learning, right? And I think that although...

that moment in my life really gave me perspective on what's really important and purpose, right? That made me who I am and it helped me develop businesses and really meet incredible people around the world. And I'm sure that those kinds of things play a role in people being attracted to you, know, just based on storytelling and...

know, who doesn't want to be around somebody who is preaching purpose and really, you know, I love to tell stories. That's the Irish side of me. But you know, the thing is, is that those waves, right, those waves that hit you in life, they just kind of keep pummeling you. And I don't think in the moment you realize that so you get caught in that moment, just trying to catch your breath, that you don't really

remember how to swim. And if you're able to look back and realize, wow, I did figure this out before and there is a path. Maybe it's not the same path, but I like to say and using the kind of the beach metaphor is, know, there's a lot of people by whatever circumstances they like the beach, they hang out and they're watching everyone else, you know, surfing and boating and say, I'm going to I'll get into the water eventually.

Tania Leichliter (: 06:02

Hmm.

Jeff (: 06:29

And for those people who step out of their comfort zone and they get into the currents, a wave pummel zone. And, it's exhilarating at first, right? And some of us have, and I do have, the dopamine rush of risk and that type of thing. throw yourself in head first and, and say, wow, that was awesome. What a ride. And then, as you're catching your breath, boom, you get hit again.

Right. And sometimes you have to go with that current and you have to have trust that, it's not the same path back. Right. I'm 51 years old and I've been divorced for, 10 years now, and I was married for 12 years. I have three teenagers as you, as you said, and,

I do have to remind myself that I've come a long way, but I still I think when you get that perspective, you realize, wow, there's going to be another wave coming,

I try to always remind myself that, I don't want to live in the future too much, right? I think that, regrets ruminating over things, beating yourself up that lives in the past and

the future is anxiety and is fear. And we give those two things too much power. the moment, this moment is the only thing we control, the only thing. And every one of these pivotal moments have taught me that lesson or bring me back, right? That's my lighthouse is to realize that Jeff, get out of your head. the sky's not falling. life is fragile, it's precious, but that's all we have.

Tania Leichliter (: 08:00

Yeah, so I actually just built a whole course around fear and how fear sits at the core of almost all of our emotions. It's just about what that headed goddess is going to appear as today. And one of the things that Tara Brock, who is one of my mindful coaches, she talks about riding the waves as well.

And she talks about the fact that it's not that the waves are gonna stop rolling. It's just that you need to learn how to ride them. And that is fear. It's about learning how to ride those waves, not avoiding them, not get in the water, don't buffer, don't utilize all those other avoidance techniques

Jeff (: 08:31

Absolutely.

Tania Leichliter (: 08:46

over eating, over drinking, over scrolling, over spending, know, all of those buffering techniques that we do so easily when we are in fear, even though fear might come out at us as different emotions, anger, resentment, disappointment, whatever, anxiety, but really it's about learning how to ride those waves and moving through your fear. And so just as you're telling your story about how you pivot in your life,

and how you are able to say, okay, yeah, this is the wave that's crashed on top of me and I can decide to get out of the water and never get back in, or I can decide to stay in that water and make choices in my life on how I want my future to look like. Like you said, you wanna live in the present, you don't wanna live too much into the future, but you don't wanna live in the past, right? So you also talk a lot in your book about humility.

Jeff (: 09:32

Absolutely.

Mm-hmm. Right.

Tania Leichliter (: 09:42

and how the humility really allowed you or allows you to rise above that pride. So can you talk to me a little bit about humility and how humility really played a role in the healing around your divorce and how you can share some of what you experienced give some lessons or exercises or teachings around humility and healing.

Jeff (: 10:07

Absolutely. And you said, I think a good place to start is the word you use afterwards is pride. So pride can, get us to excel.

Right. And especially I can only speak from my perspective and as a male perspective is that pride going all the way back to the first pitch in little league was something that, it fueled me and it, really motivated me to, be good at things, right. sometimes to take control. don't consider myself really a control freak, but

definitely things can get out of control when you think you have it all figured out. pride and ego to me are kind of synonymous. And I've realized so much that our ego is the thing that, you know, just constantly is getting in my way. So when

when after nine years, probably by that time, nine years of marriage, my ex-wife, so wife at the time, she said, I love you, but I'm not in love with you. And that is a chasm between pride and utter, faced with fear and vulnerability and so much of that.

That's a tough pill to swallow. I'm happy to be able to say that I immediately took ownership because I'm a fixer and I wanted to be able to correct, self-correct that, right? I wanted to harness the wind, so to speak, using that metaphor that we were both using and that, you know, my world was crashing down and I

just wanted to be able to take ownership. And I did look at myself, I thought I was broken and that I did that. And I say that because I still cared. And so I wanted to salvage, I wanted to, yeah, self correct. So at that moment, it was was bent knee and go to my own doctor and didn't even know what to ask,

I just said, I must be broken. There must be something about my personality. You know, it's like, give me a pill a chill pill, so to speak. Right. and I was willing to, literally do anything. So when she mentioned counseling, that was a no brainer for me. And after being single on and off, mostly off over, you know, 10 years since divorce,

I will say that the pattern I've picked up from many single women that I've met that are divorcees, that they do not, or they said that their former, you know, spouse refused to go to counseling. And if there's one massive piece of advice that really moves you from pride and ego into more vulnerability and humility is definitely

being able to kind of put up a white flag and say, I don't have it all figured out, that there could be another perspective here. There is a whole nother human being, whether it's, you know, whatever you're dealing with in life, that there's a whole nother human being or human beings that have their own perspectives. So I was grateful that very quickly I said, yes, like, let's go and let's meet with somebody. So that I think was,

Tania Leichliter (: 13:18

Yeah.

Jeff (: 13:41

one of the more humbling moments. I mean, I mentioned about my brother's death in the fashion that he passed away. That was humbling. And that was on a different plane than the person that you had looked across an altar and said, till death do us part. And so that was a that was a starting point. And that was a part of healing. And we can get into that. But

that definitely was the birthplace of humility and a death place of pride. Because I was not proud of that person I promised so much for and to take care of, right? To protect and I obviously wasn't doing a good job.

Tania Leichliter (: 14:21

So one of the things that, so I coach, I do coach actually a lot of men and I realize a pattern in terms of things that they think when they're getting divorced and a lot of what I hear is failure. And that because the vows by which we say till death do us part,

And that if you don't reach that commitment that you believe that you've a failure. And you said, like you just told me, I said I was gonna be a provider or a protector, a partner. And yet, it still didn't work out that way. And there's a level of ego and pride that's associated with that thought that I've failed.

And something in your book kind of really hit me around. You talked about being the best at, and you had a lot of different things that you said, you know, that you wanted to be the best at. And I believe that, your thoughts about if you put yourself in a place where you believe you have to be the best at all of these things, doesn't that set you up?

for failure, So it's a mindset thing. you know, rethinking, rethinking about why do I need, why do I need to be the best at that? Why do I need to be the best at that? why do we put ourselves in a position by which we're setting ourselves up for failure? part of my job as a divorce coach,

is I tried to shift people's thinking about the fact that you can't control what your wife's needs were, and you are two human beings that are showing up and evolving as humans. And just because you're getting divorced doesn't mean that you're a failure. It means that both of you are now pivoting to having more personal growth and self-discovery.

right? So post divorce, can tell me like post divorce, how much growth actually has happened in you since in the last 10 years?

Jeff (: 16:37

Incredible amount, absolutely incredible amount because that, you know, it goes back to humility and that I've learned that weakness is your greatest strength. And a lot of people don't learn, especially men don't want to hear the weakness part because what propels us to be successful and maybe to be an attractive partner to somebody in the beginning is you're good at things, whatever it is, whether it's telling a joke or good at

friendships and making people laugh or at your job or sports and I had a bunch of successes in life but once humbled then you realize what is best I definitely I definitely

find myself just catching myself. So they say a happy wife is a happy, happy life, right? Happy ex wife is a happy life. So that's what I'm learning. Not an easy path to get to all the time. And also back to the wave thing is it comes and it goes. And hopefully it

Tania Leichliter (: 17:30

It is. It is.

Jeff (: 17:41

goes more than it comes And then realizing that I play a part in it. So, by going to counseling, marital counseling, and then doing co-parenting counseling, keeping the kids first, that was really huge. And then you get to a point where I'm not the best dad, but I'm a darn good one.

And I try not to compare myself to other people, but if I'm in, if I'm in the, in the flow, right? You know, that word flow, I've learned so much about that in the last 10 years too, right? So, some people just know it as being in the zone, right? You know, it's like, how can you shoot a free throw when the championship's on the line and you have 50,000 people screaming at you half want you to make it.

Tania Leichliter (: 18:11

Ew.

Jeff (: 18:29

and the other half, want you to mess up. But being able to recognize that I am not in control of everything and knowing that

life is about relationships, whether it be a wife, whether it be a partner, whether it be an ex wife, whether it be my manager. So I'm learning lots of forms of communication. So I mean, this podcast can be five hours long, because there's so many buzzwords, but they're so there but they are so true. Being able to connect with that emotional side of myself has allowed me to

write the book and be very, very detailed about, things I went through, thoughts going through my head. Trying to put myself in, the shoes of somebody who might live in a garbage dump in a third world country or teenagers that would be at my side that I take there.

You know, empathy, communication, humility, when somebody welcomes you into their personal space, if it's a podcast, if it's a relationship or any form of relationship, romantic or otherwise, that's an incredible moment to be in. And my kids have allowed me to, I've done really, I've done well. They're turning into wonderful human beings.

Tania Leichliter (: 19:45

Yes, isn't that so great? I always say that the way that our children treat us is not an indicator of our influence on them. It's how they treat others when they go out into the world and how they treat other people. And you see them showing up as themselves outside of the home. Like, you know, our kids can get mad because we didn't make their pasta right or whatever.

Jeff (: 19:55

Mm.

I like that.

Tania Leichliter (: 20:08

but they go into somebody else's home and they would never tell the person that there's a guest at their house that they cooked their pasta wrong, right? So you know you've done something even though they might not treat you with that same respect every day. I definitely think that we all hope that we can do right for our children. And I love the fact that you and your ex have really focused on the children and that you did co-parenting coaching, which I wanna ask you about.

Jeff (: 20:17

Right.

Tania Leichliter (: 20:36

In my previous episode, actually had interviewed a co-parenting coach. And I think that everything that we do at Better Than Bitter is all about child-centered divorces. And I've had guests on that have been adult children of amicable divorces, because I'm super curious about...

you know, what my kids, what your kids are gonna say when they're in their 30s and the fact that we were able to maintain this amicable relationship with our exes and what a gift we were giving to them because they don't deserve to be in the line of fire. So tell me a little bit more about that co-parenting coach experience for you and how it really guided, you know, you and your ex to have this productive, collaborative, cooperative relationship.

Jeff (: 21:24

Yeah, the we went through counseling with Merrill counselor. And when it got to the point where we both agreed that this was a season, and now it's time to move on. We had put in the work, we had put in the thoughts and the discussions and the tears. And then we looked to the counselor and she was

very experienced and said, I would be more than willing to talk to you about now what, what's the next step. And obviously, you know that there's just so much transition, right? On so many different levels as you go through a divorce and at first just the separation period, what are you going to tell the kids? You know, where are you going to live? You know, how are you going to break up the, you know, the time with the kids and finances?

everything and then looking at your job and you know, can you be a single parent even if it's 50 % of the time you're still, you know, providing, you know, so many of the same things. So you're looking at so many of that, but I'll tell you that what it came down to is another human being that we respected, right? That had empathy, but that was trained, that had experience and simply looked at us and said, well, what do you want for the kids?

And we both said we want them to be our priority. Our schedules aren't our priority. You know, our living arrangements. mean, everything has to have a core to grow from. And that was we're going to keep our kids a priority and everything. And that was a huge, a huge move right there. And I think everything comes from that. No, not easy.

sharing something, you know, personal, but I think, you know, important because it leads to again, that transition and humility that is riddled in there. So I move into a house and at first when we decided actually to get to tell the kids that indeed we are getting mommy and daddy are, you know, going to be friends. That we're going to, but we're not going to be living together and life's changing. They were young at the time. were 10.

or nine, seven and five. You know, we had kind of gotten through that piece. And once we crossed that, it was like we became friends. You know, my soon to be ex wife. I mean, we actually it was like this thing that was lifted off of us. Now, that's before lawyers got involved. So there's there's bumps in the road. But that was that was relieving that that core was there, that respect and a different form of love.

Tania Leichliter (: 23:49

Mm-hmm.

Jeff (: 24:09

Right? Can you be in love with somebody in one fashion, but not in another? And over the years, I think we've figured that piece out. But when we actually went house shopping together, people thought we were a young couple looking for houses. She painted the rooms of the house, the kids' rooms. I mean, was an interesting time. there was a moment, you know, and again, that one wave comes in and the other wave goes out.

back and forth. There was dust settling in my house from some construction work just to get the house ready and whatnot. And I saw on this wooden table where the dust had all settled, there was one of the kids had drawn stick figures of mommy, daddy, and the kids, you know, holding hands. And then there was a note that was just left, not to be seen, but just a note.

Now, nine, seven, and five. And that note said, I hate this house, and it's all mommy and daddy's fault.

I don't know if there's too many other things that are above that on the list of humility. When you love your kids, you want to give them everything and you know you're positioned to give them such wonderful things. But that was very difficult. The good thing is, is I didn't harbor any ill will. It was at that point, the counselor.

had helped us on multiple levels, kind of look at our situation and still allow us to bitch a little bit, right? I mean, that's definitely a part of it as well. So that counselor, we did that for a while. I'm not sure how long she continued cause some of it was together and some of it, when you're talking about co-parenting, it doesn't always have to be with that person, sitting in front of you.

Tania Leichliter (: 26:00

Yeah, sure. It's the challenges of all of a sudden being a single parent. know, there's, it's, it's overwhelming when you haven't had to do everything and all of a sudden you have to do everything, whether you're the man or the woman. And, you know, that's definitely over overwhelming. I know that you talk about the fact that, you have this relationship with your, with your ex-wife and it is still a partnership. It's just a partnership.

Jeff (: 26:14

Mm-hmm.

Tania Leichliter (: 26:29

a new one, right? And the co-parenting coach that I had on the last podcast, she talked about the most difficult thing for people to really do when they move into co-parenting is to separate the past partnership with the parenting because the way that your ex showed up in the marriage was one type of partnership, right?

And that if you can't separate that out and let that go and allow for the new relationship to take place where it is a different partnership and the partnership is around parenting, right? So, it really does change people's perspective in terms of, okay, yeah, I gotta leave all that behind and I have to reestablish.

a different partnership around parenting because that is what is going to connect us, right? There's nothing else that is really connecting us other than this really important new job that we have, and that is to have a family re-imagined. I told my kids, when we were separating and it was like you said, probably the worst day of my entire life is having to share that information to little faces and

how to say it, and we said it very similarly, know, mom and dad are still love each other, we're just not in love with each other, and we're not gonna like live together. And the idea around what you said about, you know, we're still a family. And I said to our kids like, hey, we're really committed to this family, it's just gonna be a family re-imagined. And my daughter was 17 at the time, and she starts to laugh, she was like, my God, mom.

Jeff (: 27:53

Yeah, absolutely.

Thank you.

Tania Leichliter (: 28:15

you know, like whatever, you know, like family re-imagined. But if you were to ask my kids today, years later, what is it? What do you think this is? They absolutely would say, yeah, this is a family re-imagined. Like, we are still a family. It's just a different one, than we started.

Jeff (: 28:35

Yeah. Yeah, I suppose I would, I'm going to throw some questions your way. So, sometimes I feel blessed that, I've, they haven't had to deal with some of the obstacles that I hear that are out there. So what do you do? You know, it sounds like in your case, in my case, we took the high road and said, we still love each other and, know, when there's, there's a lot of infidelity out there, there's a lot of hurt and betrayal and

Tania Leichliter (: 28:40

Sure.

Jeff (: 29:02

And, when somebody, they want what's best for their kids, but they don't like they're harboring ill will, at that critical moment of divorce, how, how do you, how do they prioritize the kids in those situations? Or if you have a child that, I've heard before where, some kids

really are let in. mean, if they're older too, they're let into the why there's the divorce, right? Younger kids might not want to know as much as another age. So when you have one partner that is still beat up and hurt and angry, or you have kids that might know inside with one parent, that

probably a little bit tougher in those situations. I mean, what have you learned from that?

Tania Leichliter (: 29:55

Yeah, so a lot of what we... So people, when they decide that they're getting divorced, a lot of people rush very quickly into a legal process. And it's very important that we process our emotional divorce before we move into our legal divorce, because the legal divorce then becomes an emotional disaster, right? So...

Jeff (: 30:14

Hmm, well said.

Tania Leichliter (: 30:18

And so we really do focus individuals that have had some sort of event that might be infidelity, or maybe they just feel wronged. We get them to a place by which they can throw away the why. Because once you make the decision that you're getting divorced, the why actually doesn't matter anymore.

Jeff (: 30:28

Mm-hmm.

Tania Leichliter (: 30:40

Most states are no fault states. So it's not going to be brought up in court. It's not going to get you anything more if your ex-wife had an affair. But I deal with a lot of individuals that are having that anger, the resentment, the disappointment, the disbelief, and they are emotionally in a place of grieving. so moving through your grieving process is very important.

and getting to the place of forgiveness and not forgiveness of the other person for an act that they did because you don't need to do that, but you need to forgive yourself for allowing that bitterness and resentment to rule your world. Right? So just getting to a place of acceptance to say, okay, this is what it is.

If someone made a decision that you couldn't control, the only thing that you can control is your actions, behaviors, and reactions, right? You cannot control other people. And if you keep your focus on what result you want in your life, So what is the result that you want in your life, right? So it's like, if you know that outcome, do you want to live a life post divorce, bitter?

angry, resentment. Do you want to hold on to that to affect the second or the next chapter of your life? Nobody wants to live that way long term, right? So what's the best way of healing yourself to allow yourself to get to a place of acceptance? When you move into your legal negotiation, you're ready to negotiate a business contract. And I talked to individuals like this is the most difficult business contract that you'll ever negotiate.

but it is a business negotiation. When you're in a company and you're negotiating a contract, there's gonna be so much discomfort if you're trying to fight for things that are important and you prioritize like what you're willing to have concessions on and not. That's a divorce contract and it doesn't feel good. Like you said, like.

Until the legal people got involved, we were kind of like in a happy place. And then the lawyers got involved and it was like, ugh, you know? And so like, yeah, it's not going to feel good. I'm not saying amicable divorces are all warm and fuzzy. The legal process is going to be hard, but it's a business negotiation. And if you have processed and you've gotten to a place where you believe that you have courage and hope and believe in your next chapter, when you step in,

Jeff (: 32:46

Thank

I mean.

Tania Leichliter (: 33:10

and you're stopped blaming, I talk about victors and victims. if you're walking into a legal negotiation and you're stuck in this victim mentality where you're blaming and you're having excuses and denial around, your role in where you are or what you believe, like the best thing that you said to me, I took responsibility. I took accountability, right?

It's so easy to blame other people for a marriage that doesn't work out. it's their fault. If they didn't do this, they didn't do that. Or they didn't show up this way. Therefore it just didn't work out. Well, that's a victim mentality. Life doesn't happen to you. It happens for you. And if you move into your divorce, thinking this isn't happening to me. This is happening for me. This is the pivotal life moment. I have an opportunity to grow.

And even Tara Brock talks about that with fear. She's like, can either run around fear and avoid it, or you can try to move through that fear where there's this big red button and every time you do it, you push it and it means time to grow. And I just love that visual. I love that visual of that big red button. And I'm like, I'm gonna push through this. I'm gonna push this button. I'm gonna move through this fear because if you do,

Not only is the legal negotiation going to go more smoothly, if you can throw away the why, you can manifest your desired outcome, know the results that you want for yourself and for your children. Nobody says, I want to get divorced and have a horrible co-parenting relationship with my ex. I mean, who says that? Nobody hopes for that.

Jeff (: 34:52

they just can't see through their own bitterness at that point in time. You had said about the, how did you say that? That was the button, the red button, right? As soon as you said that is funny because the image that went through my mind is, is I needed a shock collar at first, a red button. was a shock collar, right? I'm sure some people could say that they want to put that on their, their

Tania Leichliter (: 35:01

the red button. Time to grow.

Yes.

I'm do a suit and the eggs.

Jeff (: 35:18

their partner. But I mean, I'm at a point where it's like, man, I need that for myself, once in a while. I mean, for real, like, is something as simple as texting somebody was was just for me dangerous. And in the workplace, they even say that about emails, right? There's nothing worse than something being taken out of context, right? And, I'm an over communicator. So

but somebody doesn't need to get paragraphs and paragraphs in a text, where it says more or whatever, the text, that's a long text when you have to actually press the button because you can't even scroll on. It's like, my gosh, well, we're friends now, right? you'll see. But but text and communication is just, it's massive. So I love how you said actually about,

Tania Leichliter (: 35:56

a text like that.

Jeff (: 36:11

about how you said that, it's don't rush into the legal part until the emotional part is at least you're on that path to addressing that. And that it really is a contract, it's a partnership. I mean, you have a job to get done, I hate saying that that's kind of, how it is, like treating it like it's a contract at work, like an employment agreement.

but it really is, right? Yeah, I don't think I figured that out at first. So those texts, those texts just realize that it's so easy to just fire off a statement or whatever, and there's just no context. And for us to this day, to be honest, it is, it's not hard to trigger some animosity with a person who is making major decisions about human beings that you love and care dearly about.

Tania Leichliter (: 36:39

really is.

Jeff (: 37:05

there's no doubt that that can set you back. But when I really take a big step back and I look at when I'm in the room with a boss that I don't necessarily see eye to eye on an issue with or a colleague or my own children or my ex, when I'm in the same physical space, empathy, I mean, if you're good person at one point, you were a lockstep together. And when you're in

If you're a respectful human being, you're looking at the person, you're picking up on body language and things like that, right? But you don't get any of that in text.

Tania Leichliter (: 37:43

No, and there's actually a really, really great app out there now. It wasn't there when you got divorced, but it's called Our Family Wizard. And I encourage everybody who is struggling to really figure out the whole texting communication thing. So Our Family Wizard is a platform by which you can put all of your parenting time in, and it has a text platform, and it has a lot of other bells and whistles. But if the tone of the text

is something that is not a supportive tone or derogatory, maybe it's passive aggressive, it fixes it for you before it gets sent out. And it also...

Jeff (: 38:21

Wow, that's pretty cool. And you would think with AI, it's just gonna keep getting better,

Tania Leichliter (: 38:28

keep getting better so it alerts you like, hey, this isn't so productive. This is a better way of saying it. But it also keeps track of all of that. So if there is any other issues down the line that you need reference back to communication or if something's not working and that it's all noted. So in some cases, I do believe that courts will require individuals to use the app.

Jeff (: 38:32

Hahaha

Tania Leichliter (: 38:55

So there are a great, lot of tools out there. And by the way, this is not a sponsored pitch on our family. I just really do believe that it's a great platform. If you're having issues, if you're dealing with somebody who you believe is a high conflict individual, being able to have something like that to help. And there's a lot of different techniques that we go through in my five step game plan course about communicating with high conflict individuals.

Jeff (: 39:00

Mm-hmm.

Tania Leichliter (: 39:22

And it's really amazing people who I coach don't know if that can work. I'm like, try it. Try it, try it, try it. Because the way that we do

Jeff (: 39:29

Yeah, well, I mean, it sounds like it's a great tool to have a tool about and then that takes you back to also having another tool and that is a professional, right? A professional counselor, coach, somebody who, I can already tell in a short period of time, we've talked once before this that, every counselor or coach has a different, I guess a different vibe, right? then dynamic, but when it clicks, then

If I had an issue that was big that was coming up that I wanted to, talk to you about, mean, I can come to you, I'm guessing, and throw that scenario and you can be like, Jeff, like dial it back a little bit. You know, all this other stuff isn't as important as what is the issue that you really want to express? What's your goal out of this? I'm not giving a plug for you, but I am because

Tania Leichliter (: 40:21

No, no, I, no, I, I...

Jeff (: 40:24

I'm already thinking in this short period of time, I'm already thinking about, I got into another relationship a lot sooner than she did. And that set us back. We were not dancing through the daisies, but things were pretty well. I moved on a little bit quicker than her, a lot quicker. And sure wish I had somebody like you to process that a little bit, just to get another perspective.

instead of the bulldozing. Like, if you're throwing me to the side, I can go and do what I want to do. Right. I mean, I think I'm a nicer person than that, but I can understand now looking back that that, probably came, came across that way. Right. And then it's like, how do you keep the kids? How are you keeping the kids at the forefront when it can come across as, that's very selfish behavior,

Tania Leichliter (: 41:13

I always veer on the side of caution in terms of when you bring new people into your lives, how you introduce the children, depending on the ages of the children, and if they're ready, I always say, make sure you're checking in with your kids.

Jeff (: 41:27

Hmm.

Tania Leichliter (: 41:30

making sure that, do they want to meet somebody else? Because you can keep it private when you don't have them full time. The kids don't always necessarily have to meet people unless it is something you believe is going to be something that might be long-term. You know, don't have a revolving door. Don't feel like you need to introduce your kids to every person you're dating. You do not. You know, I mean, they don't have to be subject to that. You know, if it's a serious relationship, then make the proper introductions.

Jeff (: 41:38

Mm-hmm.

Tania Leichliter (: 41:58

If the kids are older, they don't really care who you date, you can kind of sense their warmth to that. Maybe they just have a curiosity more than anything, but they just want you to be happy. That's also a whole other podcast we could talk about dating. I know, I know. Okay, so we've been talking for so long and this has been such an incredible experience for me and I am so just blessed to be able to...

Jeff (: 42:05

me.

Yeah, Sign me up.

Tania Leichliter (: 42:28

talk with you today because the Pivotal Life, everybody should read it. It's available on Amazon. Again, this is not a paid promotion. I'm just telling you it's a really good book and it is something that will change your life. I was telling Jeff that The Celestine Prophecy is one of those books that I go back to all the time and I feel like The Pivotal Life is going to be sitting right next to that one on my bed stand. So Jeff, if there's any last

Jeff (: 42:38

Thank you.

Tania Leichliter (: 42:55

comments you want to make to the audience, any reminders, any motivational words of wisdom as they... People are going to be coming in to listen to us who have either just started or maybe during or even after their divorce.

Jeff (: 43:09

You started off by using the word, hope that was early on in some of your comments. And I just really have to say that there is hope that, I know that it's, cliches exist for a reason, right? They get repeated over and over for generations because there's some truth to it. And we can't see beyond that, that that moment, right? But the whole concept of a pivotal moment is that you have options.

And you have to ask yourself, what is it that you control? And from a guy's perspective, who wants to give away power that's unnecessary? Right. I want to be empowered. I want to have power. I'm a guy. And again, that's probably not just a male thing, but men listening for sure would understand when I say like, we want to regain power.

in our lives. And it doesn't always have to be an unhealthy thing. recognizing that it's just a path, it is an actual journey. And that, it's a compass that you have to sometimes take a step back, calm the blank down, breathe, and then determine, what do you want? You know, what do you want to imagine?

or reimagine I say retreat, I write about it and some other stuff that I'm working on. It's retreat, it's recommit like, hey, I want this I'm willing to commit. And then it's reimagine what is possible, and what my future I want my future to be, I want it to be healthy, I want to be healthy and happy for my kids, I want to be in a successful relationship. Again,

But I just want to live a life without anger and bitterness and just always looking backwards. And then you have to retool. And when you retool and work with somebody that knows a little bit more or somebody who's gone through something similar, you got to tap into that wisdom. And then you got to reengage. And then it's one step back in.

But really it's, think that there's that knee jerk reaction to just pounce and to jump. And I think that the first step needs to be, calm the bleep down and breathe and take that step back. And then it's kind of rinse and repeat, right? And I will end with this that, there was a Mother's Day weekend, I was out of the country and I just.

Decided to text that time text my ex and just say thanks for taking the kids and happy Mother's Day And I just want you to know that I picked the best person to raise my kids so I have come to a place where we are different people and she's in a wonderful marriage and I I couldn't have picked a better man to raise my kids and co-parent with but To get to that place. There is hope that you can get

to that. And that's it until the next wave hits, but hopefully not with her and just something else in life and one step forward.

Tania Leichliter (: 46:18

Well, Jeff, this has, again, been such a great conversation and I'm definitely going to have you on as you publish your second book and we can talk more about, your life journeys. And again, such a pleasure. Thank you.

Jeff (: 46:34

Thank you so much.

Tania Leichliter (: 46:35

Thank you again for tuning in to episode number four with Jeff Wensler. Wasn't he great? I just wanted to follow up on the three top tips that we could have pulled from today's episode. The first one is riding the wave. Jeff talked about the fact that resilience is all about riding the waves and that just because you feel the discomfort, just because those waves keep crashing down on you.

Don't give up. That is what resilience is built from. It's learning how to ride the wave, which is going to make all of the difference. The second thing is about co-parenting. It's about building that new relationship with your ex and making sure that you enter into that relationship with an open mind and learning from Jeff about how to embrace a significant other that might be

married or dating your ex partner. And that with that will come a lot of grace and gratitude and respect because that person might just end up being the bonus parent of your kids. So getting along with that individual, that individual who might end up raising your children to a certain extent is only going to produce better kids.

The more people that love your children, the better. And the last thing is humility. Just make sure that you are going through this process with humility. Leave your ego at the door. You will become a much better individual if you can approach your divorce from a place of humility. So again, we thank you, Jeff, for participating in the Better Than Bitter podcast.

and we hope to see all of you on the next episode.

Tania Leichliter (: 48:37

Thanks for tuning in to Better Than Bitter, navigating an amicable divorce. Whether you are at the beginning of your divorce journey, midway through, or even

we want the stories from our guests to give you hope that an amicable resolution is possible. If you'd like to dive deeper into today's episode, check out our show notes for a full transcript, reflections, and links to learn more about Better Than Bitter's coaching courses,

and how to connect with our fabulous guests. If you're ready for more support, you can head over to betterthanbitter.coach. Daily, you'll find details and additional information on our five-step game plan multimedia course, our one-to-one Zoom coaching, group coaching, monthly memberships, events and retreats, and a whole lot more. Plus, we've got a ton of free resources, like our monthly newsletter,

our private Facebook group, Instagram channel, and a library of articles and free webinars to help you along the way. When you go to our website, you'll be able to schedule a free 45 minute breakthrough call. Remember, we're here to help you reach an amicable resolution. Find your courage and believe in your brighter future because you know what? It is possible.

At Better Than Bitter, we measure success by what we give and not by what we get. So let's change the divorce dialogue together. It's time to be better than bitter.