Introduction (: 00:06

Welcome to the Better Than Bitter Divorce Podcast, where we flip the script on divorce and show you how to have a more amicable divorce resolution. I'm your host, Tania Leichliter a divorce coach, a certified life coach, and the mastermind behind the Better Than Bitter five-step game plan course, where I help individuals build a pathway towards a more amicable divorce resolution.

Each week, I'll bring you uplifting stories from people who've successfully experienced amicable separations, proving that divorce doesn't have to be a battleground. Whether you're overwhelmed with grief, struggling with custody and co-parenting, or just dealing with a high-conflict individual, this podcast is here to guide you towards reclaiming your life and being what I know is possible, better than bitter.

Tania Leichliter (: 01:21

Welcome to the Better Than Bitter Podcast, episode 38, To Date or To Heal. Today we have Robyn Vogel. She is a trauma-informed love and intimacy coach.

She's recognized as one of the top teachers in the heart of her community, and she's the founder of Come Back to Love, which is known for providing trauma-informed, heart-centered solutions that are designed to ignite a sense of love, expand the spirit, and heal the past. In a time of fleeting social media interactions, our one-hour coffee dates, and the world that looks like it's falling apart, Robyn offers hope, genuine human connection, and inner transformation.

We are so happy to have her on the Better Than Bitter podcast because there are so many questions about when to start dating or when to focus on healing. So again, welcome Robyn.

Robyn Vogel (: 02:18

Thank you so much, Tania. Thanks for having me here today.

Tania Leichliter (: 02:21

So this is such an important topic because so many times in my support group, the question comes up like, when do we start to date? And, we're gonna do a three-part series on this. But the first piece of that is the question where are you? Are you in a process of healing, and you're looking to date to escape or to...

maybe buffer some of the feelings that you have, or are you actually interested because maybe your marriage had been dead for 10 years and you had stuck in that marriage and you had really healed over that time and this was just the last straw and you're like, yeah, I'm just ready to get back out there. So there are so many different question marks when it comes to this topic, and you are the perfect guest to bring on because I know that you've just...

You've done so much work in bringing people together and really understanding the trauma as it relates to love and how people can heal through that process to move into a healthier relationship.

Robyn Vogel (: 03:23

Yes, very good topic. Thank you for bringing this today. And you already raised some of the pieces that get expressed. And I think there's a range, some people are just, like you said, so ready to get out there. They just are sick and tired of whatever they've been experiencing. Maybe they've been in a loveless or a sexless

marriage or partnership for a long time, and they're just like wanting to have fun, and under the surface, perhaps wanting to have a nice distraction. And that can be a fine reason to date, except that sometimes, and I would say often, that leads to a relationship that maybe you didn't actually intend to have, or you weren't really ready for.

We see a lot of things from that. From there, we can see a lot of three-month relationships, because it takes about that amount of time to get to know somebody and see if there's even like a real connection other than maybe the chemistry you feel on that first coffee date, that first one or two coffee dates. And so there are a lot of 90-day relationships and then a breakup, and then a 90-day relationship and then a breakup.

And that's actually really hard on the heart and on the nervous system. So that's one thing that happens. The other thing that happens is that people actually get into a longer-term relationship, and they find that they're noticing a repetition of patterns, a repetition of themes, a repetition of hurts, maybe. And they're like, how did this happen again?

Why do I keep attracting the same person in a different body? Why do I keep having the same experience? I thought I dealt with this, you know, trauma from my past. I thought I had healed the last heartbreak I had. I thought I was done with the abuse I experienced as a child, whatever it is, fill in the blank. And there it is again. And I'm not saying that that's not gonna happen, because we do carry our, we sort of carry our thematic life wounds with us and deal with them.

On different levels, ongoing, but I think it leaves people feeling really frustrated and then thinking that they're broken or they're not good enough or something's not right because they can't actually have the sustainable relationship that they're really craving. So I'm gonna pause there for a minute because there are some things to unpack there, probably.

Tania Leichliter (: 05:43

Yeah, I mean, I just find it really interesting. And I, of course, reel back into my own experience. And I think that, you know, some of the pieces that, you know, when I do some coaching around people, it's about rediscovering your authentic self. And, you know, in this process of healing, we do some work.

In my coaching program where people think about what you were like and who you were before your marriage. And really writing down all of the things they loved about themselves pre-marriage, and then thinking about marriage and not just the things that, you know, they evolved, and I'm sure they still loved pieces of themselves in that marriage, but then they lost that sense of self.

In that process because maybe they had evolved into something that was more what that other person was looking for. And, or again, responsibilities, child rearing, et cetera. And we tend to map that back to, okay, you have an opportunity to reinvent. So what is it about you from your past, and match it with what you like about your present, and bring back that kind of total self?

And thinking is this authentically who I am? How can I bring this more authentic self forward? And sometimes, at least with me, I think that when I went through that process myself, part of that exploration was around getting out there and meeting new people and not necessarily looking for love, because I talk about

And all of my coaching is that dating with the intent of looking and finding a partner is a much different experience than just going out, expanding your social circle, experiencing self-discovery in the process of building new relationships, but not necessarily shopping for love.

Part of it is that people who go and shop for love usually aren't successful because they've got a checklist and they're not allowing moments to happen. They're like at the table on that coffee date checking the boxes, and they're not just enjoying the experience, right? And so, I think that we all need to heal, no matter if you had initiated the divorce or if somebody else had initiated the divorce.

And yeah, you don't want to repeat the same patterns, recognizing those patterns. And you're right. If you go out with 20 people, you might end up in a relationship. I ended up in almost a two-year relationship post-divorce. But I'm so grateful that I had that experience. It allowed for me to...

to feel connected and love again when you have a marriage, a long-term marriage, a loveless marriage, it just felt really good. But I think for me, I had a healthier mindset around it because when it ended, I was like, I still really care for this person, and I still want to be friends and connected.

Robyn Vogel (: 08:37

Thank

Tania Leichliter (: 08:50

because they played such an important part in my life during a particular time period. And I think we were that for each other. Is it a bad thing? I didn't have that series of three-month relationships. I had a lot of dates, the three-date rule, I might go to four, but after three, it's more courteous.

Robyn Vogel (: 09:07

you

Tania Leichliter (: 09:08

I don't really feel like there's a long-standing connection, but maybe we can still be friends. I'm friends with almost every guy that I actually went on a date with. Is that a crazy thing? ⁓ Just because it's not a love connection, my intent, if you listen to my intent, I wanted to expand my social circle, right? And meet new people. And that was my intent with dating.

Robyn Vogel (: 09:17

Wow.

Tania Leichliter (: 09:32

I was able to ask, would they be okay with us staying friends? And it's really amazing how many people say yes, because everyone's looking for companionship, company, connection in different ways, and you're not going to always get everything from one person.

Robyn Vogel (: 09:35

You

Tania Leichliter (: 09:50

I'm really just curious about this, dating, and the healing. And can we, Robyn, can we heal and date in the same way? And how do we do that in a healthy way?

Robyn Vogel (: 09:55

Yes.

That's it.

Right, it's a great question. So first of all, your story is your unique story. I know we had this conversation elsewhere, and I am not friends with all the people that I dated because I'm someone who has a lot of community already and a lot of friends. So it's interesting what you said because when I was dating and thinking about a relationship, it was like wanting somebody to come in and join this whole community of people. So I would always say like, not collecting friends.

So it just shows like everybody's different, right? And whatever your journey is, it is your journey and that's the journey to honor. So one of the mantras that I've been playing with, besides, come back to love is the name of my business. And that is the mantra that I, you know, live and breathe and drink in my water glass every day. How do we come back to the love that's inside ourselves and know that we are love, no matter what. So all of my work is sort of founded and informed by that.

truth or that mission, if you will. Then, as I've been doing this work for 20 years, I've seen so many things. And one of the things I see the most is people who are really suffering inside because they want to be in a relationship, and they're not. They want companionship. They want to make decisions together with a partner. They want great sex. They want intimacy. They want a connection. They want to share their lives with someone.

Yes, to all that good stuff. And they're struggling with why it isn't happening? Why do I keep repeating patterns? Why aren't I getting to where I want to get to in this realm of relationship and love and sex, and intimacy? And the thing that I noticed the most is a leap over the issues, whatever the issues are. And we've all got them, right? We've all got them, me, you, everybody. It's human. So, just want to say that to the listeners.

And when you leap over the issues, you don't really understand yourself well enough to be in that long-lasting relationship. I'm not saying this is 100 % of the time, for the people who are really struggling. And there are obstacles in there to love because we all end up protecting our hearts after we've been hurt. And then sometimes, for many of us, that started when we were five years old.

And we've just, had this sort of protective pattern that got established over many years. Back to leaping over, I call it trauma bypass. It's like bypassing the trauma that's there. Or, you know, maybe trauma is too heavy a word for some people, but bypassing whatever the issues are and getting into a relationship. And then again, like sort of running on a hamster wheel and not having the long-lasting relationship that you want.

So I sort of put out on social media, stop dating, and start healing. And it's an extreme statement. You asked, Can we be dating and healing at the same time? Yes, of course, but it depends on where you're focusing. A lot of people, unfortunately, because it's what we learned, we tend to focus outward.

We tend to just put all our eggs in the basket that's out there, and we're not paying attention to ourselves and what's happening. Can you do those things in parallel? Yes, as long as you don't lose sight of yourself, as long as you don't give everything to your partner and forget about yourself, as long as you don't make decisions based on only what that other person wants and start people pleasing.

And not taking care of yourself and really noticing what's happening inside of you, which is a very common experience, which I'm sure you have seen over and over and over again in the work that you're doing.

Tania Leichliter (: 13:38

Yeah, that's the people-pleasing piece of it that is so interesting. And I slip into it. I think that for some, it's people pleasing, or is it by helping and saving others, that makes you feel that you're doing good.

Robyn Vogel (: 13:40

It's.

Yes, very common.

Tania Leichliter (: 13:58

So when you're pleasing somebody else, maybe they're in a bad place and you're bringing them up, you kind of forget about your own problems, right? Because you're helping others. And I see that so much in people who are... Yeah, I see it so much in people who are nurturers. And the nurturers, of course, tend to date the people who are a little bit more narcissistic. So it becomes that...

Robyn Vogel (: 14:10

That's how it sounds.

Yes.

Tania Leichliter (: 14:24

of behavior for sure. I just I love the fact that you talk about that inward versus that outward. And I know one of the things that we talk about in life coaching is that lovability.

Your lovability is that you are lovable just the way you are, right? And being able to focus inward and saying, I am lovable. Everything about me is lovable just the way that I am. But bringing in a partner, they might not be love-able. So you don't have control over their ability to be able to love.

Robyn Vogel (: 14:45

Yes.

Tania Leichliter (: 15:03

Because again, they might not be loving themselves enough to love you, but you have to understand that you are lovable. And then I think about emotional availability and being attracted to those who aren't emotionally available,

Robyn Vogel (: 15:12

Yeah, beautiful.

Tania Leichliter (: 15:19

The person on the other end, the people pleaser, the person who likes to nurture, tends to start to not feel good about themselves because they don't believe that they are lovable, right? Because the other person doesn't know how to show love. So I'm assuming that's a lot of the kind of work that you do.

Robyn Vogel (: 15:37

Yeah, well, I invite people to stop dating when they're noticing a pattern, when they're not getting to where they want to get, when they're sometimes hurting other people in the process, and certainly hurting themselves in the process. So I take that actually very seriously, the stop dating, start healing. And, how long I invite people to stop dating and start healing is very individual. Sometimes people need like,

just a couple of months to regroup with themselves, to really look inside at what happened and why it happened, and what was their role in it happening, so that they have greater insight into themselves and they can bring more of a healthy version of themselves to the next relationship. Sometimes people really need a lot of in-depth time to focus on themselves, and nobody wants to hear take a year and focus on yourself, but you know,

It's like on the other side of that, you're way more of your true self. And when you're your true or truest self, you're gonna align and attract a partner that actually meets you there. And so that dynamic that you described of the nurturer and the one that needs rescuing, I'm a very nurturing person, and I don't wanna dedicate my life to a relationship where I'm rescuing a partner and nobody actually does. So it feels good in the beginning.

And then a couple of years in, it's like, how did I get here? And this person is, and then they rattle off all of the judgments they have about their person. And it's like, wait, wait, wait, this person was that person when you met them, but you were in that space wanting to feel good about yourself. We all want to feel good about ourselves.

But the way that you got that feedback about being lovable, perhaps, is that you were doing something nice and nurturing for someone else. And that's a beautiful thing, except when it's an imbalanced pattern. And then, into the relationship a few years, you're unhappy and you're blaming the other person for being needy and being whatever and not being able to take care of the house and clean up in the kitchen. And it's like, I totally understand and have compassion for that dilemma.

Tania Leichliter (: 17:28

Mm-hmm.

Robyn Vogel (: 17:48

And we have to be really, really conscious in our choosing.

Tania Leichliter (: 17:52

So, what are some of the exercises that we could be prompting our audience to be able to have that understanding and recognition of where they are? So you said, stop dating and start healing, but how can we help them determine where they are in that timeline?

Robyn Vogel (: 18:11

So I would say the first thing to do, because people ask me that question a lot, well, how do I know if I should stop dating and start healing? What are the indicators? So you and I have both said a couple of them so far, but just to repeat. You're not where you want to be in your relationship. You're noticing patterns repeating themselves. You kind of feel like you're running on a hamster wheel. You tell yourself, I just dated this person. They look different, but it's the same.

Dynamic, why do I keep attracting a narcissist? Why do I keep attracting somebody who's so wounded? Why do I keep attracting someone who's financially unstable? There are many things. So what's really important and very helpful, and it is very helpful to do this with a coach, but you certainly can do it on your own, is to look back at your timeline of relationships. And sometimes I'll have people sketch it out on paper, like make a timeline, put all the relationships they've had.

short ones, long ones, the longest one, the marriage, or whatever. And then write down the themes that they see in that particular relationship. First, just focus on the one relationship and then look at it. And no doubt there will be themes along the way. And that's really helpful. That's great information for you. And then you can also see like, well, did all of that happen 20 years ago, or is it like?

You know, my last breakup was last month. So everybody knows themselves. So if you ask yourself like, is it time to do some healing work? Do I need to do some healing work on myself? The answer is yes. Then there's no right answer, right? Go for it. So that's the first thing, just to really self-identify, you know, yourself as somebody who should do that. And just, just a little tiny story before we get into, and I'll say a few more things about exercises, but you know, I'm going to be 60 this year.

But I remember back in my twenties, dating, and then I was looking for my partner, right? I was looking for my husband, at least subconsciously. I wouldn't tell that to anybody at the time. But I just, I noticed I was having several relationships with people I really liked, you know, that I really cared for, one of them was a really old, like childhood friend, that I really loved and adored.

And what I noticed is that I kept hurting them, people I really cared about and loved over and over again. And even at that age, didn't, yeah, well, yeah, sabotaging, yes. Not maybe choosing correctly for myself. I mean, granted, I was in my twenties, but somewhere inside me, I knew and I told myself, stop dating and start healing.

Tania Leichliter (: 20:23

Hmm.

Like, sabotage.

Robyn Vogel (: 20:43

So it actually began, you know, however many years ago, that was 35 years ago. And I did, took my own advice, and I stopped completely. And I did that again later on in my life in my forties, when I was noticing patterns, and I was like, I'm hurting myself. So I stopped and, like, had a one-year period of celibacy that actually lasted two years.

And so, okay, so self-identify, notice, you know, what's going on, pause. And then, you want to look at themes and where they came from in your life. And I think for a lot of people, they can see like, I've been feeling abandoned. I keep getting left. I was abandoned as a child. You know, I had this neglectful experience with a parent or whatever it was that happened. And then you also want to look at your mindset. You brought up lovable.

lovable, but lovable first, and notice like, do you feel lovable? Is it something you feel about yourself? Do you know that that, that one, your love period, capital L, and two, do you feel like you're someone who's worthy of love? What are you telling yourself? Because your mind can tell you all kinds of things. And so we want to, in the comeback to love approach, we actually,

do a four-gates approach. So there are four aspects that we're looking at in terms of healing. And the first one is the emotional. The second one is the mind. What are you telling yourself? What are the repeated thoughts? And sometimes it takes mindfulness to notice what those thoughts are because you're so used to telling yourself, I'm not good enough, that you stop noticing that you're telling yourself, I'm not good enough. And when you pause and slow down, and just have the intention of hearing those thoughts more often, you will hear them more often.

And then you'll recognize, wow, I'm telling that to myself 10 times a day. And then you know, okay, this is something that needs work, you know. Whatever you tell yourself, the energy, the energetic, and the energy of that thought is what you're living and bringing into the world.

And like attracts like. So you tell yourself, I'm not lovable, I'm a shitty person, I'm bad at this, I'm not good enough. And then you're undoubtedly gonna attract that energy to you. And then you're attracting someone who feels similarly. I'm not saying this happens 100 % of the time, but it happens a lot. Because we bring to us what we need to heal, which is the good news and the bad news.

Tania Leichliter (: 23:06

So we've talked a lot about this idea of when is the right time. Being able to establish that timeline, being able to look at your past history of relationships, and getting a really, really good understanding of what the relationship looked like from the outside in, considering you're reflecting back, being able to look at habits, and actually write them on a piece of paper.

to be able to see, kind of like, okay, I see a habit here. So that's one way of really first establishing the understanding of where you are in terms of being ready to date or ready to heal. Because if you are seeing that pattern of behavior, that's a huge bell to say, like, all right, you got to heal from this because ultimately you're gonna end up with the next one exactly like the one before and the one before.

But then we talk about, is it time to heal? So what does that even mean? So, how do we heal, Robyn? Like, what is the process for healing? ⁓ And how do we get ourselves out of these habits? And what can we be doing on a daily basis? One of the things I hear you saying is about self-compassion, meaning that if you recognize how you're talking to yourself every day, and if you're not talking to yourself like you would talk to a friend, that's how I teach people.

Robyn Vogel (: 24:07

the

Tania Leichliter (: 24:27

In my business about what self-compassion is. Like, I wouldn't say to you as my friend, you're worthless, Robyn. You're not worthy of love, Robyn. And if you're talking to yourself that way and it's not something you would ever say to a friend, if you, as my friend, were struggling, would...

be encouraging you, I would be trying to create some level of hope, I would be pointing out all of the great things about you. And if you're not talking to yourself in the same way that you would talk to a friend, then self-compassion is something that you obviously need to be working on. So, how can we give people daily exercises to work on healing?

As I said, easy to do daily. And obviously, the harder piece is getting into work with someone like you who's really dealing with the deeper trauma that's associated with that. But are there things that people can be doing daily

Robyn Vogel (: 25:23

I don't think it's easy to do the daily, actually. I think we are all living, pretty speedy life these days. And what I invite people to do, and I'll talk about the thoughts and how to work with those in a moment, but what I invite people to do is have a practice time. Usually I suggest once a week, like on a Saturday, for example, to set an intention in the morning to say, okay,

Today, for the next three hours, I'm gonna watch my thoughts and just be like hyper aware for three hours and watch my thoughts. Because during the day, when you have a meeting and then you're going to lunch and then you're picking up the kids and then you're, you know, there's like a zillion things. It's really hard to notice your thoughts. So I just wanna say that. So it'd be great to be able to do it daily. And if you have a meditation practice daily, then yes, that is ideal and that is really helpful. So.

Compassion, self-compassion are definitely part of it. Like you said, speak to yourself like you would speak to a friend, like you would speak to a child, really. If a child were upset, you wouldn't be like, what's going on with you? Why are you acting this way? You would be like, my gosh, sweetie, what's happening? Tell me more. It's like the opposite of how sometimes people are speaking to themselves.

So this is from the world of neuroscience and neuroplasticity. The brain gets into patterns. The repetition is what changes the brain. And that's why you say a daily practice, which, yes, feeds the repetition. The brain gets stuck in patterns, and that's where these thoughts just keep looping. You know, I'm not worthy, let's say, or I don't deserve love, is something that

got communicated somewhere down the road, somewhere in the past, not down the road, somewhere down the road in the past. And the brain and the body just took that on. Let's say, I don't really deserve love. I'm not really a good enough person to be loved. Let's just say that's the thought. And unfortunately, the repetition of that thought gets it really stuck in the brain, and it creates an actual groove in the brain.

And if you think about, I teach it in this way, if you think about a marble that's sitting on top of like a sort of sandy mountain top and there's a really deep groove and then there's no groove on the other side, the marble's gonna go down the really deep groove, right? It's easy, we know that's what would happen. All we have to do is give it a little tap, and there it goes down the groove. And that's the repetition of thought that you're telling yourself, I'm not good enough, I'm not really worthy of love.

And that'll just keep repeating itself. You can see if you want to create a new groove, a new thought, a loving thought about yourself, you actually have to work at it. You have to push it a little bit further. You might have to push it down the first time to get the groove started. You have to keep going so that the groove gets established. And there's a lot of very specific tools in the world of neuroscience that have been proven that will actually create a new pattern in the brain so that you go from, I don't deserve love, I'm not good enough to, wow, I'm an amazing person, I'm great just as I am, and I totally deserve love.

Now you can just practice like you said, what would be a daily practice? You could actually, once you've identified one of your negative limiting beliefs, you could turn it into something that you would like to believe.

And you could, in the mirror every day, tell yourself that belief. Now, the thing that's going to happen is that their parts, I'm an internal family systems therapist along with a coach, but what happens is other parts will show up and be like, no, that's not true. What do you mean? Come on. know, there'll be like all these, like all sorts of a chorus in the background. You might not hear them loudly, but they'll be there. So that is one of the limiting pieces of just doing what we would call mirror work or affirmations. There's a lot of talk about just doing affirmations every day.

Well, if you've got a part coming in every day, going like, no, you're not really good enough. That's not true. Then your affirmations aren't really going to be effective. It actually takes some really too complex for today's podcast, but some very specific tools that actually help rewire the brain. Some of it can be somatic work, tapping work.

Some of it is very specific tools to actually, I'll just say sort of flush the body with the feel-good hormones that you really want to be experiencing when you tell yourself like, yay, I'm an awesome person. Cause that feels good, right? And you got a flush of good hormones there, and that flush of good hormones actually helps rewire the brain, which is kind of interesting. I'm kind of, I'm a little bit of a science person. So you got that science piece.

Tania Leichliter (: 29:53

I love that. I, and so, I mean, it's so similar to the coaching that I was trained in as well, doing the thought downloads. We talk about doing them daily, but five, 10 minutes, just getting those ruminating thoughts out on paper, and then looking at those thoughts, are those absolutely true, or are they just the truth that I've created? I talk about the truth and my truth.

Again, it comes back to that limiting belief. The truth a circumstances and the thought being something that is just your thinking around the life circumstance, and however you're thinking about it is what's creating your feelings for the day. Right? So just getting that thought out on paper and being like, okay, is that thought something I know is absolutely true?

Robyn Vogel (: 30:35

That is actually really similar to Byron asking the four questions. So, for those listening, you can look up Byron Katie. It's not work that I do with my clients, but it is very similar to what Tania was just saying. Basically the first question is, is it true? And the second question is, how do you know it's true?

So like, can you prove that that's true? You know, if you're thinking to yourself, well, I'm not a great person and I'm not worthy of love, then the next question is, is that true? And how do you know it's true? So that's a really good start to the neuroplasticity work because you're really looking at...

at yourself and what's happening inside.

What's the real truth of what's going on?

Tania Leichliter (: 31:23

another way I can be thinking about this to produce a different feeling for myself? Because every day, if I'm being a results-oriented person, if I'm feeling hopeless, how am I going to act, react, and behave versus if I'm feeling empowered? So when I'm feeling empowered, I act, react, and behave in a way that most likely is going to get me the results that I'm looking for in my life.

Robyn Vogel (: 31:28

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Tania Leichliter (: 31:48

versus if I'm feeling hopeless, then how am I gonna act, react, and behave? Is that gonna get me the results? So if you have clarity around what you want in your life and the outcome, and then you have to understand get that outcome, how am I showing up? What are my actions? What are my inactions? What are my behaviors? What are my reactions that I'm gonna need to manage to get me that result? And to be able to show up that way, how do I need to feel?

And to feel that way, what do I need to be thinking? And so I work kind of, call it, it's like this thought framework model. And I work with all my clients exactly like this. We either start with an outcome, or we start with a thought, or we start with how we're feeling. And then we build out from there the pieces of the model that allow us to have a full vision of how it's all interconnected. So our thoughts,

They are directly connected to the results we're getting in our lives, right? Because the comes from. And it's just the same exact thing you're doing. You're doing this with people every day. You're saying, let's pay attention to our thoughts on a Saturday for three hours. I'm like, OK, just get them out on paper because they're ruminating. Because you talked about being on that hamster wheel, or talking about how we can get out of our own heads on those repeating thoughts.

And the goal is to get them out

Robyn Vogel (: 33:08

But I want to add another piece that feels really important because it's true, working with your thoughts, and that is so helpful. There's so much, like you said, there's so much science, and we know that what we're thinking, we know that energy follows thoughts. So you have a thought, the energy follows from there. And the really deep...

Healing piece to me is so important because where do the thoughts come from? I do something called a bridge back meditation, basically inviting people to notice what's happening in this moment, whether it's a thought or a feeling or a trigger, or a reaction. And we do this meditation, it's a little bit of a shamanic journey back to whatever, back to wherever it goes, whether it's early in this lifetime, maybe it's another lifetime, maybe it's just an experience somewhere.

That isn't definable, but they can access the healing that's actually required. So that actually those thoughts, those behaviors don't even exist anymore after doing that kind of work. So there's a little, so that's just a piece I want to add because it's really so valuable to the healing journey. I mean, I would say like, and come back to love, like I said, we have a four gate approach, but the first two gates being one that works on the emotion, and the second that works on.

Tania Leichliter (: 34:06

Hmm.

Robyn Vogel (: 34:22

Like they work together really, really powerfully. And that's how we spend, in my nine-month program, Heal Your Heart, that's how we spend like the first 30 to 60 days, like really diving in so that people really get it, which impacted me. You know, sometimes I hear people say like, My past impacted me way more than I thought, you know.

Tania Leichliter (: 34:44

I've got clients who are also really good at compartmentalizing. And I might actually be in that category of compartmentalizing. So when I'm in it and I want to heal and do the work on it, I'm in it and I'm doing the work.

Robyn Vogel (: 34:48

Right.

Tania Leichliter (: 34:57

But then I compartmentalize that and allow for my life to move on. So I don't sit in that place all day, every day. And whether that's a healthy habit or not, a healthy habit, because I am really big into healing and a really big into doing work. But yet again, you gotta allow for your life to be lived in the moment as well and stay really present.

Robyn Vogel (: 35:15

Yes.

Tania Leichliter (: 35:22

And so, I think that that's like, I would say people would say that that would be my superpower, is I have that capacity to be able to do that. And a lot of people don't, like, you know, it's a lot of people don't have the ability to move into their daily lives and function, when they're in the process of healing, it's just all encompassing because pain that's coming up and everything that's coming forward, which is so important to face, but it just doesn't seem to ever have any level of relief.

I don't know if you can address it. I don't know why I wanted to talk about that, but I think that that's important because I have clients who are in those kinds of different categories, some that are able to heal and work.

Robyn Vogel (: 35:55

Hmm. ⁓

Yeah.

Yeah.

Tania Leichliter (: 36:09

And function, and I have other ones that are just healing, working, and not functioning.

Robyn Vogel (: 36:14

Hmm. Well, I would say that it's really helpful to think about it as the ocean waves, that things come in and they go out, and they come in and they go out. And it's so that's one thing, just in terms of how to conceptualize it, and also to know that when emotion, it's the same, it's the same image of the waves. When emotion is strong, it shows up strongly.

But it has a natural flow. It comes strongly, and then it releases, and you come back to a state of regulation in your nervous system and in your body. And I think it's really helpful to know that that is most typically the case, and you're not gonna feel what you're afraid to feel forever. I mean, I think that's what keeps people. I know it used to keep me from allowing myself to feel

strong feelings because I was afraid that I would feel that way forever. And of course, nobody wants to feel that way forever. And thankfully, our bodies won't let us feel that way forever if we're healthy. So it takes some courage, and it takes some work, and it takes some trust in order to do the work.

Tania Leichliter (: 37:22

I love the concept of the wave, and I actually use the same visual. I know I listened to some work that Tara Brock was talking about. She uses the analogy of surfing the wave, and it's not that the waves are going to stop crashing. You just need to learn how to ride them. And that's really about how to build resilience and to understand that, again, those waves.

Robyn Vogel (: 37:39

Right.

Tania Leichliter (: 37:46

They're just going to keep coming, and they're just going to keep coming. But yet if you can learn to ride that wave and stay with the current and stay with the water that's moving, you're just going to learn that the longer you sit with that emotion, the vibration in your body will begin to subside. But if you don't, try to get out into the water at all, then that

That emotion, that vibration, is going to sit with you for longer. It's about facing those emotions, facing your fears, being able to sit with them, allowing for that vibration to be there, and it actually will just subside. I actually talk about hunger pain. So you know when you get super, super hungry and your stomach is just growling, but then you don't actually get to eat for 30 minutes? Do you realize that those hunger pains are gone? Right? They subside.

Robyn Vogel (: 38:30

Yeah.

Yeah.

Right.

Tania Leichliter (: 38:38

And I

feel like some of our most intense emotions, if you sit with them and you allow for that vibration to be there and you cry, you shake, and you do whatever you need to do just to sit there and be with that feeling, it does start to feel better. Whereas if you just buffer it and move it aside, that goes back to the dating. Are we dating to buffer so we're not actually paying attention to what we're feeling in our body? We're trying to get another,

Robyn Vogel (: 38:54

Yeah.

Right.

Tania Leichliter (: 39:05

cortisol release or endorphin release based on what somebody else is doing to make us feel better, that, of course, is unhealthy dating. You want to be able to create those for yourself. And then, when you can, that of course is the indicator that I don't need something else with it, like overeating, overdrinking, over smoking, over sexing, over scrolling, like all these buffering things.

You don't want to overdo anything, right? You want to make sure that you're in a place where you can produce and be present with yourself to produce all of these amazingly important releases in your body. And then, of course, it feels even better to go.

Robyn Vogel (: 39:27

Yes.

Tania Leichliter (: 39:44

Indeed, because you feel better about yourself. You feel better about your ability to love yourself. It's just such an honest exercise. So I know that we're kind of tight on time.

I do want to make sure that everybody knows a lot about you, Robyn. You do so much. I want to talk for a minute about some of the retreats that you do before we go, because I think not only do you have these amazing nine-month programs, but you take people all around.

Robyn Vogel (: 39:48

Yeah.

Yeah.

Tania Leichliter (: 40:08

And you do such incredible healing with people through experiences. Again, you're hitting two birds with one stone. You're giving them experiences that produce those natural endorphins. You're allowing people to connect with other people, but in the same place, you're also doing the healing work. So, do you wanna talk a little bit about what you do in that way?

Robyn Vogel (: 40:28

Sure, happy to be just back from Italy, as you probably know. The nine-month program, like I already mentioned, Heal Your Heart, is one of the main ways that I work with people. And I have a lot of in-person work as well. I have things that are for people who are local to the New England area. And I bring people who are in.

All areas in the world are connected to these beautiful destinations. And we have week-long retreats. I've been doing that for 11 years now. And this year we just went to Italy and we're going to Costa Rica in December. Next year I think we'll be in Portugal and Greece, and also in Costa Rica. go to Costa Rica every year, every December. So it's a really, like you said, it's such a wonderful opportunity to do, to come into a sacred space, first of all.

To connect with other people on a similar journey. It's singles and it's also couples. I don't separate them out because there's so much to learn from each other. I find that when we have a couple of couples in the room, it's like they are just demonstrating what it's like to move through challenges in a relationship, and everybody else really gains from that experience. So it's a combination of a deep inner journey. My work is

Tantra informed. I've been teaching Tantra for 20 years, along with my background in psychotherapy and coaching. And so it's all about really deeply connecting with yourself and being in a community, if you will, for usually a week, somewhere between, you know, five to seven days, depending on the retreat. And at the same time that we have this deep well of a container to really turn our gaze inside and inward, and do the internal work and really discover the number one obstacle to love, whether you're in a relationship or not.

There's something in there that's underneath, that's hard to find. And having a space to pause, take some breaths, be spacious, slow down, and get rid of all those distractions that you just mentioned. It makes it so much easier to discover what that obstacle is and then to work on it in a safe way.

So we have that combined with an excursion to a medieval village or a hike to a waterfall or, you know, just a snorkeling trip, like just incredibly beautiful afternoon activities or just resting by the pool, taking a nap with your journal, and, you know, cuddling up with yourself. So people are at choice, and it's just a really nice blend of things, along with the most delicious food and incredible views.

It's just been amazing. feel so blessed.

Yeah.

Tania Leichliter (: 42:57

That is awesome.

Well, I just want to thank everybody for joining us today. This is Robyn Vogel with Come Back to Love. You can find her at comebacktolove.com, and all of her information will be noted as well as in the transcript of the podcast. And I just really thank you, Robyn. The work you do is so important

Robyn Vogel (: 43:18

You're welcome. Thank you so much, Tania.

Tania Leichliter (: 43:19

Thanks for tuning in to Better Than Bitter, navigating an amicable divorce. Whether you are at the beginning of your divorce journey, midway through, or even done, we want the stories from our guests to give you hope that an amicable resolution is possible. If you'd like to dive deeper into today's episode, check out our show notes for a full transcript, reflections, and links to learn more about Better Than Bitter's coaching courses.

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